From: melanie chesnel <mjchesnel@ornamentation.fr> > On Monday, June 4, 2012 5:25:04 PM UTC+2, (unknown) wrote: > Oliver Cromwell, my historical hero who > > abolished the monarchy and led the execution party of Charles I, > making Britain a republic, > > albeit for only a relatively short period. > > > > Commonwealth - Britain has never been a Republic. Commonwealth is > the English term for a political community founded for the common > good, a Republic is a state in which the supreme power rests in the > body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by > representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them. Agreed in > both cases the head of state is not a Monarch, but Cromwell's > Commonwealth was not republican in my opinion and Cromwell was less > than democratic. > > regards > melanie chesnel> It has long been my view that, as family historians, we could have had a system of civil registration almost two centuries before we finally got it in 1837, had we not made the supreme mistake of restoring the monarchy in 1660. The worst thing Cromwell did (among many good things) was leave a vacuum after his death, which his weakling of a son Richard was not fitted to fill and other factions quarrelled so much that there was little choice left but to invite Charles II back. While it's true that many parish registers were lost in the Civil War, Cromwell's regime saw the introduction of an Act that said births had to be recorded rather than just baptisms and deaths rather than burials. Also, from 1653 until the Restoration, marriage was virtually removed from the hands of the clergy altogether and became a civil ceremony conducted by a Justice of the Peace and recorded by a lay official called a Register (NOT registrar). Where these records survive they are very good - I have some excellent examples from Kirkby Malham in Yorkshire - and give considerably more detail than the usual scanty records we are all familiar with. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE
From: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com > It has long been my view that, as family historians, we could have > had a system of civil registration almost two centuries before we finally got it in 1837, > had we not made the supreme mistake of restoring the monarchy in 1660. snip..... > While it's true that many parish registers were lost in the Civil > War, Cromwell's regime saw the introduction of an Act that said births had to be recorded > rather than just baptisms and deaths rather than burials. Also, from 1653 until the Restoration, > marriage was virtually removed from the hands of the clergy altogether and became a civil > ceremony conducted by a Justice of the Peace and recorded by a lay official called a > Register (NOT registrar). Where these records survive they are very good - I have some excellent > examples from Kirkby Malham in Yorkshire - and give considerably more detail than the > usual scanty records we are all familiar with.> For the aforementioned examples, see my feature for Your Family Tree magazine in 2005 on the Kirkby Malham website at: http://kirkbymalham.info/KMI/malhamdale/yft29_cromwell.pdf This article focused on a longstanding controversy over whether Oliver Cromwell officiated at two weddings in the parish in 1655 and 1656. Cromwell's alleged signature appears in the parish registers but most historians think they were forgeries - although why anyone in their right mind would dare to forge the Lord Protector's signature in his lifetime is beyond me, and what would be the point if they were inserted into the registers after his death? The problem is that the registers were stolen from the church in the 1970s - possibly by a collector because of the alleged signatures of Oliver Cromwell - and have never been seen since. However, they had been copied and published in a book by a local historian and antiquarian called John Morkill in 1933. Here is an extract from one of the supposed marriages..... "The. I.M: betweene John. Ellin of Malham & Anne Tayler of Hellifield [pishe of] Long Preston was published three severall Markett dayes in the Market. place att Settle 12th, 19th, 26th June. 1655. JE & AT was married 25th July in the presence of John Lawson of Malham & John Shackleton of the same & others before me, Olyver Cromwell R." [I.M. = Intended Marriage] I have a very personal interest in this record because JOHN SHACKLETON of Malham township was my likely 8x-great grandfather and I would dearly love to think that he actually met the Great Man, Oliver Cromwell and even enjoyed a knees-up at the reception afterwards! However, two things are very suspicious about this record..... 1) Cromwell was not known to spell his name as "Olyver" and he was a literate and educated man. 2) He NEVER used the initial "R" which was thought to mean "Rex" because, of course, he always refused the title of King (unless the "R" stood for Register but in that case it would not have applied to him but to the official who held that job). Cromwell normally signed himself as "Oliver P" the "P" standing for "Protector". One thing, however, is likely: that Cromwell probably did stay at Kirkby Malham in that period because the Squire of Calton, one of the eight townships of the parish of Kirkby Malham, was Major-General "Honest John" Lambert, a personal friend of Cromwell's and one of his principal commanders during the Civil Wars. Could someone, knowing that he was in the area, have taken the register to him to sign? However, it seems unlikely he would have made two mistakes in so doing. Even if I had no personal interest in these records, I would still find them fascinating because of the evidence they reveal..... 1) That between 1653 and 1660 marriages were conducted by Justices of the Peace as a civil ceremony. 2) Banns could be called in the market place (as they were in the above record, Settle being the nearest market town) and not necessarily in a church. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE
Roy Stockdill wrote. ".........................The worst thing Cromwell did (among many good things) was leave a vacuum after his death, which his weakling of a son Richard was not fitted to fill and other factions quarrelled so much that there was little choice left but to invite Charles II back.......". Couldn't agree more. And what an opportunity lost! We would now have a democratic Head of State instead of one who is there purely because of hereditary privilege! And we would be citizens, not subjects.
Without wishing to start another discussion are you sure this is still the case > I thought anyone born in GB was now a citizen ? <Under the law in effect from 1 January 1983, a child born in the UK to a parent who is a British citizen or 'settled' in the UK is automatically a British citizen by birth> from Wiki My passport says British Citizen Antony -----Original Message----- From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mollie Sent: 05 June 2012 16:40 To: yorksgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] How many living descendants are there of Oliver Cromwell? Roy Stockdill wrote. ".........................The worst thing Cromwell did (among many good things) was leave a vacuum after his death, which his weakling of a son Richard was not fitted to fill and other factions quarrelled so much that there was little choice left but to invite Charles II back.......". Couldn't agree more. And what an opportunity lost! We would now have a democratic Head of State instead of one who is there purely because of hereditary privilege! And we would be citizens, not subjects. ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
On 1 January 1983, upon the coming into force of the British Nationality Act 1981, every Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies became either a British Citizen, British Dependent Territories Citizen or British Overseas Citizen. The use of the term "British subject" was discontinued for all persons who fell into these categories, or who had a national citizenship of any other part of the Commonwealth. The category of "British subjects" now includes only those people formerly known as "British subjects without citizenship", and no other. In statutes passed before 1 January 1983, however, references to "British subjects" continue to be read as if they referred to "Commonwealth citizens". British Citizens are not British Subjects under the 1981 Act. The only circumstance where a person may be both a British Subject and British citizen simultaneously is a case where a British Subject connected with Ireland (s. 31 of the 1981 Act) acquires British citizenship by naturalisation or registration. In this case only, British Subject status is not lost upon acquiring British citizenship. The status of British Subject cannot now be transmitted by descent, and will become extinct when all existing British Subjects are dead. British Subjects, other than by those who obtained their status by virtue of a connection to the Republic of Ireland prior to 1949, automatically lose their British Subject status on acquiring any other nationality, including British citizenship, under section 35 of the British Nationality Act 1981. Although the term "British subject" now has a very restrictive statutory definition in the United Kingdom, and it would therefore be incorrect to describe a British citizen as a British subject, the concept of a "subject" is still recognised by the law, and the terms "the Queen's subjects", "Her Majesty's subjects", etc., continue to be used in British legal discourse.[ Lin A true friend walks in when the world walks out > From: antonylambert@c5d.co.uk > To: yorksgen@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:12:18 +0100 > Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] How many living descendants are there of Oliver Cromwell? > > Without wishing to start another discussion are you sure this is still the > case > > > I thought anyone born in GB was now a citizen ? > > <Under the law in effect from 1 January 1983, a child born in the UK to a > parent who is a British citizen or 'settled' in the UK is automatically a > British citizen by birth> from Wiki > > My passport says British Citizen > > Antony > > -----Original Message----- > From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Mollie > Sent: 05 June 2012 16:40 > To: yorksgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] How many living descendants are there of Oliver > Cromwell? > > > > > Roy Stockdill wrote. ".........................The worst thing Cromwell > did (among many good things) was leave a vacuum after his death, which his > weakling of a son Richard was not fitted to fill and other factions > quarrelled so much that there was little choice left but to invite Charles > II back.......". > > Couldn't agree more. And what an opportunity lost! We would now have a > democratic Head of State instead of one who is there purely because of > hereditary privilege! And we would be citizens, not subjects. > ..... > Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; > www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; > www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ..... > Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; > www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; > www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message