memo to self - remember the 1st ground rule not to make assumptions I read the message below from Helen and decided to check the census returns. Known facts _ Stephen was the first child of Thomas and Hannah Foster nee Woodward. This family came from Bishop Monkton but lived for a while in Pudsey. Thomas was variously a farmer, carter and the latterly the family lived at the Star Inn in Bishop Monkton (near Ripon). All this info is on the census returns plus I have birth certificates for the children. I have the newspaper report from Ripon library of the inquest into Thomas' death which was held in Bishop Monkton. I have also seen the gardener's notebook at Newby Hall. Stephen was born in Arkendale. This makes sense. he was the oldest child and Hannah's mother came originally from Arkendale. Thomas was an ag lab there at the time of the marriage. family folklore had it Stephen was a gardener and never married. So why when I looked on the census never did I find Stephen as a gardener? He was a drayman and a carter but not a gardener. It is definitely him in the gardener's notebook and he was paid the most. Was it possible to become a gardener at a large stately home without doing an apprenticeship? Chris ----Original message---- From : [email protected] Date : 02/12/2014 - 21:17 (GMTST) To : [email protected] Subject : Yorksgen and Newby Hall Gardeners st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Dear Chris I read your Yorksgen post with interest as my husband’s GGG Grandfather was a gardener at Newby Hall. Thomas Warriner was born in 1824 and was still at the Lodge at Newby in the 1901 census age 76. He died in 1908. It must have been all the fresh air that gave him a long life! I wonder if the notebooks would cover the period of Thomas? I only live in York so hopefully one day when I have some spare time I will have to have a trip to Leeds. Regards Helen