One hint in Ancestry, from another family tree entry, gives a place of death as "1682149, Yorkshire, England". The information I already had was "Middlesborough, Yorkshire, England". [This was for William Battersby, born Osgodby / Hemingbrough region in 1810.] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] Using numbers for locations > Hi Pam > > Can you give some examples > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > >>I have come across various listings for people giving numbers instead of a >>name for the location. >> Presumably this is some sort of code and I think I have heard of it >> before, but would like to know where I can find a key or directory, so I >> can work out where these places are. >> >> Thanks in anticipation. >> Pam >

Hi all This is one of those little puzzles sent to keep us interested in family history. Sorry about the length of the message but the detail is essential to the query. I have a marriage record (source West Yorks marriages on Ancestry) where the parties details are given as: 24 Dec 1883 at Halifax parish church Joseph Saville 21 bachelor, coal miner of Lightcliffe. Father: John Saville, coal miner Sarah Jane Barritt 20 spinster of Lightcliffe. Father: Thomas Barritt, mechanic Sarah Jane is my puzzle. In subsequent census records she gives her place of birth as Hipperholme then Brighouse.   In census records before the marriage the only records that fit are: 1881 as an 18 year old boarder with a Ramsden family in Halifax, 1871 as an 8 year old scholar at the Blue Coat school in Halifax. The school is for orphaned children. Another pupil is a 12 year old Thomas Barrett. Nowhere can I find her in association with a Thomas Barrett as her father. However, on 29 Nov 1863 a Sarah Jane Barrett, the daughter of William Robinson Barrett and Eliza, was baptised in Halifax parish church. Born 3 March 1863. (source West Yorks  baptism records on Ancestry). Sarah Jane was the youngest of seven children for which I found baptisms for this family. Free BMD does not include any other suitable birth record at around this time. Tom Barrett, born 1859 was their fifth child. William died in an accident on 4 July 1869 (fell down stairs at the Lower George Inn in Halifax). I cannot find a record for Eliza and her other children in 1871. The only other later records found are for two of the children who were to marry later. Now for the bit that Roy might have an opinion on. I am making an assumption that these details, before and after the marriage, are for the same Sarah Jane. My argument is that since her father died when she was 6 years old, the only family she remembered was her brother Thomas at the Blue Coat School. She does not appear to have any other family contact. At her marriage she could only think of Thomas as her family and named him as her father rather than leave the space blank and be considered illegitimate. Since she signed the register we must further assume that she was literate. I will be grateful to hear from anyone with information about Sarah Jane or even a view re her parentage. Regards Roger Family History Research: GILL, BERRY, CHARLESWORTH, ROBINSON and many others in the Holme Valley, south of Huddersfield. http://www.roger.d.gill.btinternet.co.uk/index1gen.htm http://rogergill.me.uk

Thank you, Peter and Christine, for your input re my question below, of the 18th May. I am really none the wiser, but think Leonard must be a brother in law, not a brother. Maybe! This Leonard Symondson has been at the periphery of my Symondson research for some time now, and I know he is a piece of the puzzle I have, I just don't know where to put that piece....... Regards Elaine Mullins original message I have a transcription of a will dated 1567 as follows ".........I give and bequeath unto my good brother Leonard Symondson................I ordain and make the said Leonard Symondson my brother in law my true and lawful executor of this my last will etc..." Now, is Leonard a brother or brother in law? Would the wording these days be ".....I ordain and make the said Leonard Symondson my brother, in law my true and lawful executor of this my last will etc..."

I have come across various listings for people giving numbers instead of a name for the location. Presumably this is some sort of code and I think I have heard of it before, but would like to know where I can find a key or directory, so I can work out where these places are. Thanks in anticipation. Pam

The name could also be BOWIE not to difficult to mistake an N for an I or vise versa the way some folk write or scribble. Ted Courtenay, BC

From: "Pat Crimmel" <taproots@comcast.net> > Just a thought about this issue. At one time in the US people were > using the states post office abbreviations, such as New York and they were > using NY. Others might use a post office Zip code. I'm wondering if this > is what is happening. Sometime ago in the US the National Genealogical > Society were advising everyone to completely spell out the state name and not use > any numerical codes that might change. > Why doesn't someone do the obvious and ask Ancestry - if, that is, you can ever get a reply from them? I'm not doing it myself because I use Ancestry as little as possible! This mystery about what they're up to with UK records is just another reason why. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

From: CHRISTINE WILLOTT <christine.willott@btopenworld.com> > It has been suggested that we do 'something' at Yorksgen to > celebrate the Queen's diamond jubilee. I know you all have Yorkshire > ancestors, although some got rid of George iii as king! However I > think everyone will accept an excuse for a celebration. The question > is what shall we do? Anyone got any ideas?? > > Chris> It probably ill becomes me to make a suggestion, as I shall not be at Yorksgen 2012. However, the month of July will see the 368th anniversary of the Battle of Marston Moor, near York, in 1644 which was the largest battle of the Civil War and ended in complete victory for Oliver Cromwell's parliamentarians, scuppering the Royalists' hopes in the north forever. This seems an appropriate historical event to celebrate. I feel certain that many of our ancestors must have been on the winning side (ducks and runs for cover) >vbg< -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

It has been suggested that we do 'something' at Yorksgen to celebrate the Queen's diamond jubilee. I know you all have Yorkshire ancestors, although some got rid of George iii as king! However I think everyone will accept an excuse for a celebration. The question is what shall we do? Anyone got any ideas?? Chris

From: Audrey Bowne <acbowne1@yahoo.com> > Thanks for the help > It is hard to document any info before the 1st England census 1841? NOT so! Parish registers began in 1538 in the reign of Henry VIII, though few actually survive from that date but some do. You yourself said in an earlier message that you had over 200 Bownes before 15-something-or-other, so where did you get those from? Then there were poor law records, wills, manorial and estate records, legal records such as feets of fines, and many others. And, BTW, the first census was not in 1841 but 1801, though 1841 is generally recognised as the first census to include names and places. However, there are a substantial number of unofficial censuses before then, plus ecclesiastical censuses and so on, from which lists of names have survived in some places. > I was told that the original spelling was DeBohun. The only > alternative spelling I have been using is BOWN. Someone in England is collecting all the > BOWN info and has a website. I think his name is David Bown. I will send his website > address later. I have the BOWNE spelling started in 1330. < Thus, as I have suggested, you cannot have the evidence to link your Bownes to the earlier De Bohuns. You can only speculate. That Bowne may be a variant of Bohun or De Bohun is not evidence that directly links the two together. > Where would you find more info on Williuam the conqueror < Try Google and a few history books from your local library! > I read that alot of people are related to CHARLAMAIN/E spelling ?> It was spelt CHARLEMAGNE and mathematical estimates are that millions of people descend from him. However, the number who can actually prove it is tiny. Equally, there is a well-known mathematical connundrum which says anyone in Britain (not counting immigrants) who can trace their ancestry back for several centuries MUST be descended from William the Conqueror or someone who was alive at the time because the entire population of the country is estimated then to have been no more than about two million, while today it is 30 times that. However, we come back to the same problem - who can actually prove it with the documentary evidence? And, for some of us, nothing else counts! -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi all Ancestry have updated their probate calendars to 1966 They have also plugged the gaps of missing years 1858 to 1860 & 1899 to 1902 and 1911 & 1912 Also released yesterday was UK, Poll Books and Electoral Registers, 1538-1893 (from the LMA records) I have not investigated this extensively so far but noticed over 232,000 entries for Yorkshire Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) PS if you find someone whose will was probated at Llandudno during the war years, they had not emigrated <g> the main probate office was moved from London for some of the second world war years

Morning all,  I've been reading this thread with curiosity.....I can't help wondering, like other, why Audrey hasn't taken into account spelling variations....and then not to accept the basic variation of BOWNs and BOWNEs seems ridiculous. Then the statement today from Audrey that :- "It is hard to document any info before the 1st England census 1841 ?" My jaw dropped when I read that.  What piffle.....of course it is from any side of the ponds...I'm in Australia and quite easily manage to order LDS films in to track my various ancestors....the earliest I've got back to is around the 1700 when the trail goes luke warm as I need registers after that and can't access those till my next trip to the UK. I have one underlying question about this thread also....why does Audrey want to get back to the earliest common ancestor? What is to be gained from that exercise anyway?? Seems to me it's potentially a huge waste of time/effort/money. I have a fairly uncommon name from my maternal great grandmother - BEARPARK...and you wouldn't believe the spellings and variations of that which I duly take into account. Okay well that's my two bobs worth.... ttfn Trish Ex Hull on central coast of NSW --- On Thu, 24/5/12, Audrey Bowne <acbowne1@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Audrey Bowne <acbowne1@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] FH To: "roy.stockdill@btinternet.com" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> Cc: "yorksgen@rootsweb.com" <yorksgen@rootsweb.com> Received: Thursday, 24 May, 2012, 12:36 AM Thanks for the help It is hard to document any info before the 1st England census 1841 ? On this side of the pond their is very little printed info on the 1600s and 1700s I was told that the original spelling was DeBohun. The only alternative spelling I have been using is BOWN. Someone in England is collecting all the BOWN info  and has a website. I think his name is David Bown. I will send his website address later. I have the  BOWNE spelling started in 1330. Where would you find more info on Williuam the conqueror     I read that alot of people are related to CHARLAMAIN/E  spelling ?   Thanks Audrey Bowne     ________________________________ From: "roy.stockdill@btinternet.com" <roy.stockdill@btinternet.com> To: CHRISTINE WILLOTT <christine.willott@btopenworld.com>; yorksgen <yorksgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:04 AM Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] FH   Hi Christine Of course, I completely agree with you as a fellow serious researcher. You have probably noted that I took Audrey to task slightly over one or two things in her messages and on her website. It will be interesting to see if she responds. As I mentioned in one of my messages to the list, she claims on her website that her Bownes can trace their ancestry back to the time of William the Conqueror. I fear this is a common phenomenon with our American cousins, who seem considerably more concerned about it than we are and there is a good deal of wishful thinking going on. What I suspect she has done is fall into the old trap of looking up surname definitions, noting that Bowne is a variant of Bohun or De Bohun (which can indeed be dated to the Conqueror's time since the name appears in the Domesday Book), put two and two together and made five! As I said, I very much doubt that the historical, documentary evidence is there to fill in all the gaps and links in between the Norman Conquest and the period her ancestor arrived in America. If she had the proof, why would she be asking for help on the Yorksgen list? As you and I both know, speculation is all very well but it doesn't begin to stand up without the evidence. Best wishes Roy ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Christine Of course, I completely agree with you as a fellow serious researcher. You have probably noted that I took Audrey to task slightly over one or two things in her messages and on her website. It will be interesting to see if she responds. As I mentioned in one of my messages to the list, she claims on her website that her Bownes can trace their ancestry back to the time of William the Conqueror. I fear this is a common phenomenon with our American cousins, who seem considerably more concerned about it than we are and there is a good deal of wishful thinking going on. What I suspect she has done is fall into the old trap of looking up surname definitions, noting that Bowne is a variant of Bohun or De Bohun (which can indeed be dated to the Conqueror's time since the name appears in the Domesday Book), put two and two together and made five! As I said, I very much doubt that the historical, documentary evidence is there to fill in all the gaps and links in between the Norman Conquest and the period her ancestor arrived in America. If she had the proof, why would she be asking for help on the Yorksgen list? As you and I both know, speculation is all very well but it doesn't begin to stand up without the evidence. Best wishes Roy

Hi Roy My Co Durham Granny came from Sunderland/Monkwearmouth/Bishopwearmouth. Originally these were 3 separate small villages. Her antecedents were called Gordon and were all fishermen. Now it is not outside the bounds of the imagination to say that as possibly herring fishermen they could have migrated from the Gordon clan in Aberdeen, although there is no proof for this. One tree on ancestry, however, not only has them coming from Aberdeen, but gives them a coat of arms and links them to the aristocracy! :-) NB Please pay to speak to me! My own surname of Willott is unusual. There are only about 200 of us on the entire electoral roll for the whole country. My brother in law (whose research is meticulous) has found though that the family originated in Oxfordshire, and prior to 1777 it was a bog standard Willett. (They were ag labs too so we are of good ordinary stock like most people.) I know you will agree, you have to triangulate your research (ie find the same thing from more than one source) otherwise it gets family history research a bad name amongst historical researchers. The research must be valid and reliable. Chris ________________________________

Hi Pam Can you give the specific reference as nothing comes up using any combination of search words on Ancestry in their databases or trees I can see several trees with your mentioned man passing away in 1888 but none have Middlesborough as a place or 1682149 as far as I can see If you can give the specific place you found it we may be able to say more I checked Linthorpe just in case it was a grave reference but nothing there Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > One hint in Ancestry, from another family tree entry, gives a place of death as "1682149, > Yorkshire, England". > The information I already had was "Middlesborough, Yorkshire, England". > > [This was for William Battersby, born Osgodby / Hemingbrough region in 1810.]

From: victor@markham.me.uk > Sounds like 14 Sept 1682 > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Pam" <pam.thorley@bigpond.com> > Sender: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 20:51:19 > To: Nivard Ovington<ovington1@sky.com>; <YORKSGEN-L@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] Using numbers for locations > > One hint in Ancestry, from another family tree entry, gives a place > of death as "1682149, Yorkshire, England".< Sounds quite likely, Victor. It's probably the American system of writing dates, i.e. year, day, month, and not a place reference. Americans seem to do most things backwards to us. If Pam could post the details of the death to which she is referring, then this would confirm it. Though why Ancestry cannot understand that a UK audience expects things to be written according to UK English is beyond me. But that's perverse Ancestry for you (cue Nivard)! It seems to me most unlikely that they would be so stupid and obscure as to link places to OS grid references, as someone suggested, since how many people would own OS maps or know how to find them online? Surely this would be quite absurdly complicated? -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi all, Maureen raised this question recently: >Mollicar Woods between Almondbury and Farnley (near Huddersfield).  I have lovely childhood >memories of walking there. >I understand that the Mollicar 'Whitsun Sing'  which started early 20thC is >still taking place.    I never did get there when I lived in the area, >perhaps one day. >Many thanks >Maureen Mitchell >A Yorkshire tyke living in Norfolk (UK) I forwarded the question to Denis Kilcommons who writes a regular column in the Huddersfield Examiner. He asked the question and has since published two updates, but no definite information, which can be seen by clicking the following links : http://www.examiner.co.uk/views-and-blogs/columnists/denis-kilcommons/2012/05/15/denis-kilcommons-no-sign-of-molly-in-mollicar-woods-86081-30969395/ http://www.examiner.co.uk/views-and-blogs/columnists/denis-kilcommons/2012/05/18/denis-what-s-the-story-behind-mollicar-wood-86081-30994241/ My own research did not reveal much either. I looked at the 1854 OS map where " Molly Carr Wood" is the name used. Also, for geographical / historical accuracy, although mainly associated with Almondbury the majority of the wood is in fact in the ancient township of Farnley Tyas. The boundary between the two is Lumb Dike, the stream running through the bottom of the valley on the north western edge of the wood. A FMP census index search shows only one CARR family in Almondbury in 1841 and none in 1851. There are several in the wider Huddersfield area but nothing points to Mary/Mollie Carr which might be associated with the name of the wood. Regards Roger Family History Research: GILL, BERRY, CHARLESWORTH, ROBINSON and many others in the Holme Valley, south of Huddersfield. http://www.roger.d.gill.btinternet.co.uk/index1gen.htm http://rogergill.me.uk

Elaine, Somewhere in my researches I have come across the term "in-law" to mean a step relation, so perhaps this Leonard is a step-brother ... a half-brother. Just a thought ... Regards, Cecilia Bell in Essex UK -----Original Message----- From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elaine Mullins Sent: 23 May 2012 08:54 To: YORKSGEN Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] help with the wording of a will Thank you, Peter and Christine, for your input re my question below, of the 18th May. I am really none the wiser, but think Leonard must be a brother in law, not a brother. Maybe! This Leonard Symondson has been at the periphery of my Symondson research for some time now, and I know he is a piece of the puzzle I have, I just don't know where to put that piece....... Regards Elaine Mullins original message I have a transcription of a will dated 1567 as follows ".........I give and bequeath unto my good brother Leonard Symondson................I ordain and make the said Leonard Symondson my brother in law my true and lawful executor of this my last will etc..." Now, is Leonard a brother or brother in law? Would the wording these days be ".....I ordain and make the said Leonard Symondson my brother, in law my true and lawful executor of this my last will etc..." ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It could be that they are locations taken down from the Ancestry family trees. A few years ago the Ancestry messed up a lot of locations. If England was not specified it would often try to find an American location that was similar. I also have seen a lot showing one particular CWGC cemetery in France. But you often see ones there with a six(?) figure number, no idea what they are supposed to mean but they seem to have been inserted by Ancestry's family tree system. Martin Briscoe Fort William martin@mbriscoe.me.uk -----Original Message----- From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pam Sent: 23 May 2012 10:47 To: YORKSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [YORKSGEN] Using numbers for locations I have come across various listings for people giving numbers instead of a name for the location. Presumably this is some sort of code and I think I have heard of it before, but would like to know where I can find a key or directory, so I can work out where these places are. Thanks in anticipation. Pam

Sounds like 14 Sept 1682 Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: "Pam" <pam.thorley@bigpond.com> Sender: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 20:51:19 To: Nivard Ovington<ovington1@sky.com>; <YORKSGEN-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] Using numbers for locations One hint in Ancestry, from another family tree entry, gives a place of death as "1682149, Yorkshire, England". The information I already had was "Middlesborough, Yorkshire, England". [This was for William Battersby, born Osgodby / Hemingbrough region in 1810.] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] Using numbers for locations > Hi Pam > > Can you give some examples > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > > >>I have come across various listings for people giving numbers instead of a >>name for the location. >> Presumably this is some sort of code and I think I have heard of it >> before, but would like to know where I can find a key or directory, so I >> can work out where these places are. >> >> Thanks in anticipation. >> Pam > ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could the numbers be Ordnance Survey map references or SatNav codes. The latter is being increasingly used for location of destinations Victor On 23/05/2012 10:46 AM, Pam wrote: > I have come across various listings for people giving numbers instead of a name for the location. > Presumably this is some sort of code and I think I have heard of it before, but would like to know where I can find a key or directory, so I can work out where these places are. > > Thanks in anticipation. > Pam > ..... > Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; > www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; > www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message