At 17:44 01/06/2012, roy.stockdill@btinternet.com wrote: >When I joined the Halifax Evening Courier as a junior reporter straight from grammar school .... Sad to see the Courier is ending daily production and going weekly. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-18212700 Andy.

From: "Nivard Ovington" <ovington1@sky.com> > Perhaps your clock man was just a very slow learner <g> > > I would agree that the norm was 7 years, I have heard of shorter, > three or five years but not longer than seven > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > Normally I would have agreed with you June, but yesterday I had the > horologist in to estimate for repairing my long case clock. He was telling me that the length of > an apprenticeship for his profession was 10 years! Maybe the time varied with the > profession. > > Chris> When I joined the Halifax Evening Courier as a junior reporter straight from grammar school in 1956 I had to sign indentures for four years, at the end of which I had to take the examination of the National Council for the Training of Journalists (I passed with flying colours, naturally, and left almost immediately for pastures new). Perhaps the apprenticeship period had been reduced by the 1950s or even earlier. And anyone who says they didn't know that journalists had to be apprenticed and trained is likely to incur my wrath! These days I believe you can't get a job even on a local weekly without a degree in media studies, though I once heard Andrew Neil say that when he was editing The Scotsman and the Sunday Times if he got an application from someone with a degree in media studies it went straight into the wastebin! He was right, of course. Journalism is one of those things that you only learn in what, for want of a better cliche, is called the University of Life. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Perhaps your clock man was just a very slow learner <g> I would agree that the norm was 7 years, I have heard of shorter, three or five years but not longer than seven Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) Normally I would have agreed with you June, but yesterday I had the horologist in to estimate for repairing my long case clock. He was telling me that the length of an apprenticeship for his profession was 10 years! Maybe the time varied with the profession. Chris

Normally I would have agreed with you June, but yesterday I had the horologist in to estimate for repairing my long case clock. He was telling me that the length of an apprenticeship for his profession was 10 years! Maybe the time varied with the profession. Chris ________________________________ From: June Parker <juneparker142@hotmail.com> To: emullins@xtra.co.nz; yorsgen rootsweb <yorksgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, 1 June 2012, 16:40 Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] age of an apprentice normally an apprenticeship started at the age of 14 and lasted 7 years.I have seen one that was for an Attorney and this was the case. June Gild of Freemen www.freemenofyork.org Family Historian to Dunnington Through The Ages www.dunningtonhistory.org.uk > From: emullins@xtra.co.nz > To: YORKSGEN@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:25:04 +1200 > Subject: [YORKSGEN] age of an apprentice > > Hello > > > > 1753, Warren Symonson was apprenticed to Mr John Alcock of Skipton, Attorney  (ref UK Register of Duties paid for Apprentices Indentures 1710-1811) > > > I was wondering if anyone knows at what age someone would become indentured to an attorney in 1753. Would this indenture be to become an attorney? Any ideas where this indenture may have ended up? > > > > > > Regards > > > > Elaine > ..... > Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; > www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; > www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message                         ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

normally an apprenticeship started at the age of 14 and lasted 7 years.I have seen one that was for an Attorney and this was the case. June Gild of Freemen www.freemenofyork.org Family Historian to Dunnington Through The Ages www.dunningtonhistory.org.uk > From: emullins@xtra.co.nz > To: YORKSGEN@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 10:25:04 +1200 > Subject: [YORKSGEN] age of an apprentice > > Hello > > > > 1753, Warren Symonson was apprenticed to Mr John Alcock of Skipton, Attorney (ref UK Register of Duties paid for Apprentices Indentures 1710-1811) > > > I was wondering if anyone knows at what age someone would become indentured to an attorney in 1753. Would this indenture be to become an attorney? Any ideas where this indenture may have ended up? > > > > > > Regards > > > > Elaine > ..... > Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; > www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; > www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello 1753, Warren Symonson was apprenticed to Mr John Alcock of Skipton, Attorney (ref UK Register of Duties paid for Apprentices Indentures 1710-1811) I was wondering if anyone knows at what age someone would become indentured to an attorney in 1753. Would this indenture be to become an attorney? Any ideas where this indenture may have ended up? Regards Elaine

On our last couple of trips to the UK I found cemetery offices very helpful looking for graves when I didn't have much information. A person in one office offered to arrange for someone to take me to the grave if I couldn't find it and at another cemetery the men working there actually rang the cemetery office to get the grave number and took me to the actual grave. Mind you I could add that this was in Lancashire thereby starting another heated discussion! Sorry, just joking. Lorna Kay New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Briscoe" <martin@mbriscoe.me.uk> >I found the cemetery office very helpful when looking for my Great Great > Grandparents' graves. I think they gave me photocopies of plans of the > area > where they were buried. Unfortunately both in paupers' graves that only a > few yards apart and both unmarked. > > Martin Briscoe > Fort William > martin@mbriscoe.me.uk > > Subject: [YORKSGEN] Linthorpe Cemetery > > I have just been reading through some old documents one being the Right of > Burial deed purchased by my grandmother. Presumably when my grandfather > died she bought a double plot so it gives the date of burial and the plot > number. >

I agree with Lorna. I have usually found the cemetery office to be helpful. The contact details are found on the relevant local authority web pages. On the one occasion when the cemetery office declined to help, I found that the local library had a copy of who was buried there and the librarian was more than willing to give me the info I needed. Again the library details are on the local authority web pages. Chris ________________________________ From: "davlornk@xtra.co.nz" <davlornk@xtra.co.nz> To: martin@mbriscoe.me.uk; YORKSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, 31 May 2012, 22:38 Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] Linthorpe Cemetery On our last couple of trips to the UK I found cemetery offices very helpful looking for graves when I didn't have much information.  A person in one office offered to arrange for someone to take me to the grave if I couldn't find it and at another cemetery the men working there actually rang the cemetery office to get the grave number and took me to the actual grave.     Mind you I could add that this was in Lancashire thereby  starting another heated discussion!  Sorry, just joking. Lorna Kay New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Briscoe" <martin@mbriscoe.me.uk> >I found the cemetery office very helpful when looking for my Great Great > Grandparents' graves.  I think they gave me photocopies of plans of the > area > where they were buried.  Unfortunately both in paupers' graves that only a > few yards apart and both unmarked. > > Martin Briscoe > Fort William > martin@mbriscoe.me.uk > >  Subject: [YORKSGEN] Linthorpe Cemetery > > I have just been reading through some old documents one being the Right of > Burial deed purchased by my grandmother.  Presumably when my grandfather > died she bought a double plot so it gives the date of burial and the plot > number. > ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found the cemetery office very helpful when looking for my Great Great Grandparents' graves. I think they gave me photocopies of plans of the area where they were buried. Unfortunately both in paupers' graves that only a few yards apart and both unmarked. Martin Briscoe Fort William martin@mbriscoe.me.uk -----Original Message----- From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Denise Light Sent: 31 May 2012 16:19 To: YORKSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [YORKSGEN] Linthorpe Cemetery I have just been reading through some old documents one being the Right of Burial deed purchased by my grandmother. Presumably when my grandfather died she bought a double plot so it gives the date of burial and the plot number.

I have just been reading through some old documents one being the Right of Burial deed purchased by my grandmother. Presumably when my grandfather died she bought a double plot so it gives the date of burial and the plot number. I have looked through a lot of websites re Linthorpe Cemetery in Middlesbrough but have been able to find no mention of his grave. Am I right to assume that there was no headstone. I have a plot number. is there anyone who can tell me where this might be in the cemetery He was Francis Joseph LEACH buried 15 Jul 1930 and the plot number is 10662C. my grandmother never used the plot - when she died in 1968 she was cremated. It does say that her heirs have the exclusive right of burial in perpetuity so presumably if any of our family end up in Middlesbrough we could still take up that grave? Thanks in advance for any help Denise

Here are a few more tips to add to the ones I posted earlier. 1) ALWAYS check to see whether there are what Findmypast calls "Known issues" in the censuses. For instance, there are missing pages, missing piece numbers and other known problems. I was recently looking for people I thought ought to be in the parish of Malpas, Cheshire, in the 1841, but then I looked at the Help page and discovered substantial parts of the parish were missing. In Yorkshire in 1841 parts of the parish of Ripon are missing. The damaged (and many recovered) pages in the Manchester area in the 1851 are well known but in Yorkshire in 1851 pages in the parish of Darton were damaged by flooding. Pauline Littons say in her excellent book "Pitfalls and Possibilities in Family History Research" that in 1861 16 piece numbers have not survived and sections of another 81 are missing. In Yorkshire, parts of Leeds and Halifax are missing, also parts of Guisborough. If you are unlucky enough to have had an ancestor in the missing bits, well - TOUGH! 2) Are there alternative records that can be checked? A good source, especially if your ancestor was from a gentry, ecclesiastical or land-owning family or a tradesman, is to look at directories around the time of the census (though of course they won't normally name other members of the family). 3) Many men are absent from the 1901 census because they were fighting in the Second Boer War in South Africa. My wife's grandfather, William John Troth, was among them. 4) Forenames can be as much of a problem as surnames! Sometimes nicknames or pet names were used, especially for children, and forenames often got reversed. For instance, my wife's grandfather (as above) was born at Straford-on-Avon in 1878 as William John Troth and appears as such in the 1911 census in that name in Coventry. But his marriage appears on FreeBMD in Coventry in 1910 as John W Troth and his daughter, my wife's mother, now aged 101 who appears in 1911 as being 2 months old, swears he was always known to everyone as "John Willie". So if you can't find someone with an advanced search, try reversing the forenames and/or initials. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Well there's the census section of the forthcoming new edition of the Newbies Guide taken care of ;-) Colin -----Original Message----- From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ellen Edwards Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:17 PM To: roy.stockdill@btinternet.com; yorksgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [YORKSGEN] Some tips Thank you, Roy, this is so true! Very helpful info for those of us starting our research for ancestors in the various online listings. EE -----Original Message----- From: yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:yorksgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of roy.stockdill@btinternet.com Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:22 AM As promised..... This is a very common problem, especially when an individual is found in one census but not in another. It´s important to remember that census returns can contain many errors of mistranscription and indexing, plus enumerator´s errors and the fact that information often varies, sometimes wildly, from one census to another. But remember also that transcribers are told to transcribe exactly what they SEE and not what someone thinks it ought to be! Remember the maxim that "an enumerator's error is not an error" and you should never try to correct what is clearly an enumerator's error based on some other information you may possess. All you can do is add a note of annotation, which I believe Ancestry permits but FMP doesn't (rightly, in my view, because such annotations made public can often lead to confusion, since how can we know that the person who made the annotation is correct?). Individuals and families moved about in Victorian times far more than we imagine and the likelihood of finding people at the same address in successive censuses is not high. Often you may find someone has moved many miles away for work purposes. Occupations particularly susceptible to this were railways workers, commercial travellers, seamen and fishermen, and so on. And then there´s the fact that sometimes our ancestors told fibs, varying from little white lies to whopping great big ones! Perhaps they´d told a lie to their spouse about their age and had to maintain it, or possibly there was a more sinister reason - like someone in authority was looking for them. I've come across a number of cases where the name has changed altogether but one can still tell from the family pattern (children's names, ages, birthplaces etc) that it was the same family. Some people elevated their social situation in the censuses. There may be other reasons why ages and birth places can differ in censuses. Many people genuinely didn´t know precisely how old they were, particularly if they´d been born before 1837. Or they might give their birth place as a village in one census and the nearest town in another, sometimes different places altogether. Maybe they thought they'd been born in a particular place and, by the time of the next census, they'd found out they were actually born somewhere else. Some gave the name of the earliest place they could remember living in, which might not have been where they were born at all. How can you break down these brick walls when searching the online censuses? There´s a family historian´s motto that says "Less is more". What this means is that it is possible to enter too much information into the search fields, especially if you´ve ticked the "exact" box. If just one detail is wrong, then you may well not find your ancestor. To solve the problem try these things... 1. Uncheck the "exact match only" box. 2. Try variant surnames and allow soundex and/or phonetic matches, using every variant you can think of. 3. Use wildcards. Use only some of the surname and an asterisk to allow the search engine to fill in the rest. The drawback to this approach is that you may return too many results. In these cases you may have to gradually add information a bit at a time to eliminate some of them. 4. Omit the surname altogether. It´s surprising how often this can work! I often try entering just a forename or forenames, an approximate age and birth place and you may be fortunate enough to find your ancestor appearing in a surname that has become seriously garbled, either in the original census or in the transcription, but which you can recognise by the forenames of the spouse and children. 5. If you can´t find an individual with his/her family, consider that they might have been living away from home in service; in an institution, such as a school, hospital, workhouse, prison or asylum; gone into the army or navy and serving abroad or in a military establishment somewhere; working overseas. Don't forget to look for them in shipping lists and other resources. 6. Always look at the neighbours and up and down the street. In Victorian times when homes were seriously over-crowded, some families often "farmed out" some of the kids to other family members like uncles and aunts, cousins and even neighbours who weren't relatives. 7. Has the missing person you're looking for died/got married/gone abroad/changed their name, etc, etc. 8. Read the help and advice sections at FMP, Ancestry, etc, thoroughly before starting out on your search. These give very similar advice to that I have given above. 9. Above all, use your imagination and persevere! I expect listers will have other tips of their own to add to mine. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I posted in a similar vein some time ago and was very quickly made aware of the possible consequences, from many, many sources. I subsequently re-read the conditions associated with Ancestry and all the other sites I belong to, which are as Roy states. Might I suggest Roy, that when you do re-write your "Newbie's Guide" that this point is emphasised in it? There are many ways that one can receive and give help, and I now believe that guidance on how to find the required information for yourself is the best. It is frustrating to state a point only to have it questioned time after time, and I understand how replies can seem somewhat brusque. My feeling is that Roy is trying to help people avoid losing their Ancestry etc. Memberships and though his tone may seem "off key" it is done with good intentions. Pam In sunny (but cold) Queensland

I'll submit my penny's worth as well. Rather think that someone has mentioned that Ancestry supplies an email alternative. I know I have used it to email a particular piece of information which I know my co-Aussie hasn't got or seen or with which she has been 'stuck', even though she has a genie subscription. I frequently email a census selection to myself to save me writing it all down. There is such a wonderful sense of being able to share with someone who hasn't been able to find a certain entry. It has nothing to do with what it may have cost a person in particular; I see it as a kind of generosity of spirit which we should be able to exercise. It would be extremely mean and narrow-minded, plus not to mention selfish to ignore someone's asking for assistance, especially from a member of that same list who has been able to find it. I make mention of certain gentlemen on this list who, with their far greater experience than mine, have sent me all different kinds of information about which I've enquired politely, never in a "begging" fashion. Add to that the fact that as an Aussie who has never had the doubtless pleasure of indulging myself in an overseas trip just for research, I am extremely unacquainted with, for instance, West Yorkshire from where my husband's ancestors come but have a subscription to ancestry to enable me to research them. As a matter of fact, perhaps this 'discussion' would not have arisen had we all replied privately to the questioning person's private email instead of to the list and sent our 'thank yous' to X, Y and Z in a similar fashion. I have just noticed Roy Stockdill trying to justify his point yet again. I feel quite certain that Ancestry would never take anyone to court for 12p ! They wouldn't waste their time or money!! Methinks he doth protest too much. It would take away from the GBPs in his own pocket if there were people who couldn't ask the list for assistance and had to employ a professional researcher. Eheu!! After all, 10 years is a long time for not reviewing his Newbies' assistance and he pleads lack of time. Rather a pathetic excuse IMHO. Carolyn Wilson in Australia.

Roy quoted from the FMP website: If you use your subscription to carry out research for other people (even for free), we reserve the option to stop you using the website and charge you retrospectively at £0.12 per credit for the records you have viewed. If you want to use the website for commercial purposes, you must buy a Corporate package." I find this very confusing as the FMP website describes a Corporate package thus: We offer corporate access to a large number of private and public organisations. Our corporate plans allow multiple users to access the site via one or more accounts. There is no limit to the number of users who can access the site at one time. You can also restrict access to a fixed IP address, or IP address range, which will ensure that your account is only used by users logged on to your system. The above doesn’t appear to apply to the “one man business” run by a large number of professional researchers and there is no mention on the FMP website of a “package” specifically aimed at the one man business. Just makes me wonder if a lot of professional researchers are cheats. Dawn in Sweden

A business is a body corporate, irrespective of whether it is run by a single person or not. There is, therefore, no reason why there should be a special package aimed at a one man business, the corporate package as defined covers it. Graham At 15:35 30/05/2012, Dawn Gitlin wrote: >Roy quoted from the FMP website: If you use your >subscription to carry out research for other >people (even for free), we reserve the option to >stop you using the website and charge you >retrospectively at £0.12 per credit for the >records you have viewed. If you want to use the >website for commercial purposes, you must buy a >Corporate package." I find this very confusing >as the FMP website describes a Corporate package >thus: We offer corporate access to a large >number of private and public organisations. Our >corporate plans allow multiple users to access >the site via one or more accounts. There is no >limit to the number of users who can access the >site at one time. You can also restrict access >to a fixed IP address, or IP address range, >which will ensure that your account is only used >by users logged on to your system. The above >doesn’t appear to apply to the “one man >business” run by a large number of >professional researchers and there is no mention >on the FMP website of a “package” >specifically aimed at the one man >business. Just makes me wonder if a lot of >professional researchers are cheats. Dawn in >Sweden ..... Ancestors in Yorkshire? >http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/index.html; >www.ryedalefamilyhistory.org; >www.wharfedalefhg.org.uk; >www.yorkshireparishregisters.com; >www.yorkshireroots.org.uk; >------------------------------- To unsubscribe >from the list, please send an email to >YORKSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This conversation is becoming very personal and unpleasant and I, for one, can do without it. Margaret

The time has come to draw a line under this discussion now please. A discussion of this kind is not very welcome to most listers, and many have had enough of it and unsubsribed, which is sad, because they will miss out on the benefits this list can bring to them. If you have any comments to make, either about list members or the comments made by one or more list members, please do not share them with the Yorksgen list. You may reply direct to the writer, or to me. I will do my best to answer all messages directed to me, however, my inbox has been quite full today. Thank you Janice Wood Yorksgen List Administrator

I for one am more than happy to help anyone I can for anything I have access to. So many people on this List have been wonderful with their assistance to me since joining and when I can, I return the favour. Like many others I cannot afford all the memberships but I do have one with Ancestry. Helping & sharing with others is supposed to be why we join these Lists - isn't it? Go for it Jane, ask away. Marcelle Western Australia

From: "Martin Briscoe" <martin@mbriscoe.me.uk> > With a strict interpretation of the Ancestry and FMP Terms and > Conditions then you would never be able to show anyone else any research into > your family if it contained any source information because this is likely > to be taken from one of these sites.< I rather doubt they would interpret the terms & conditions that literally, Martin. The clause is there principally to try and prevent people from passing on images to others who don't have a licence/subscription. Are there are lawyers here who are also family historians? I'd be interested to hear the legal viewpoint and I'm sure others would too! The major data providers like Ancestry and FMP are not the only organisations that have such clauses written into the licence. I was deeply involved in the production and publishing of the National Burial Index by the Federation of Family History Societies and it was very clearly written into the licence that no-one was allowed to pass on data from it. There were serious problems with Edition 1 because pirated copies of the CD were being sold on e-Bay, so for the Second Edition we made it so that the master disc had to be in the computer at all times and pirated versions wouldn't work. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE