DYS455=8 is an excellent way to separate Hg I1 from Hg I2, but not in every case because about 2% of Hg I1 are 7 or 9 at that marker. The mutations to 7 or 9 are believed to be subsequent to the original deletion from 11 to 8, some 10,000 years ago. A subclade of J2b (tentatively assigned to J2b1a4) is also 8 at DYS455, though that deletion is believed to be quite recent, probably within the last 1000 years. Still, I probably would have agreed with you that it's pointless for an I1 to deep SNP test, until the discovery of L22, but now that we have it, it's just too important a divider for the group to not test it. However, we were talking about R1b1b2 where is certainly a need to deep clade test. I keep bringing up this example because its so telling, but there has been a case of two R1b1b2's matching 60/67 who, when deep SNP tested, turned out to be in different subclades. As more people are tested, the problem of coincidental haplotypes is only going to increase. I approach genetic genealogy as a scientist, and in science, you cannot draw conclusions based on assumptions. You draw conclusions based on evidence, so you *always* run the tests. For me, "overwhelmingly likely" is just not good enough. And if you routinely deduce haplogroups, rather than test for them, you are bound to miss any exceptions there might be. I do agree that there's little point in everyone in the same family being deep SNP tested, once one member is tested. Though even in the same family there can be surprises with SNP testing. I have a man who has an mtDNA mutation not shared by his maternal grandmother's brother, so the new mutation had to have happened in him, his mother, or his maternal grandmother. The additional tests are pending. I think if deep clade testing were perceived as not being worth the money, you wouldn't see so many people doing it, and it's not like the tests are hideously expensive. Diana, confirmed testing junkie > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Aaron Hill > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:19 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > Most 'Deep Clade' Tests aren't worth the money. Most haplogroups and > subclades can be accurately determined with enough STR > markers. The more STR > testing the better. For example, if DYS 455 is 8, then the person is > overwhelmingly likely to be haplogroup I1. > > Aaron >