On 12/05/2010 01:19 AM, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > SMGF (the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation) is a non-profit organization > backed, at least in part, by philanthropic donations. It was never the > intention of the foundation to make a profit. But it's a fact of life that you > do "get what you pay for," and most genealogists find the limitations of being > tested at SMGF unworkable. Hence the market for commercial DNA testing, despite > the fact that someone's giving it away (or at least was). > I know I said I wouldn't bore you with the details but.......... About fifteen years ago the Church of Latter Day Saints put out a call for subjects to donate a blood sample and at least a five generation tree. It was an experimental project to gather subjects for DNA genealogical research. There was no promise of the results ever being made available. Sorenson was the lab that did the work. [ I think they are connected to the LDS in some way, but that's just my opinion ] A few years ago I saw that Sorenson was in the "business" of doing testing so I contacted them. At that time they weren't releasing any of the original subjects results. Every so often I would get an email about their services because I had gotten in their mail database. Then about a year or so ago I got an email that for just a few dollars I could "buy" my mtdna results. I figured what the heck, why not. Several months later I got the e-mail that said they would "sell" me my Y results for a few more dollars. Best I can recall I got a 37 YDNA and my mtdna results for about fifty dollars total. With the possibility that they "might" give more findings in the future, probably for a small sum of course. This also included a membership in Sorensons website, Genetree. My original intention when I made my "donation" was not so much to get my results as to further the science of DNA genealogical research in it's infancy. The fact that I did get my results was more of a bonus than anything else. > <snip> > > If you have a match with one or more persons in the table, you can email the > project admin and ask them to let the member(s) know you would like to be in > touch. If they want to be in contact with you, they will respond. Also, given > that the WALSH project is based at WFN, they can accept results from labs other > than FTDNA, so as long as your a male surnamed, WALSH, I can't see why they > wouldn't let you join. These are their instructions for joining: > http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/walsh/order > I've been in contact with the manager of the WALSH group and intend to send my data this morning. AND, it WILL include family information. I'm willing to share information that helps me find "my" family, or those that aren't "mine" for that matter. Even negative information is valuable. Keeps one from spending time on searches that don't have anything to do with your line. > Given my earlier messages, I obviously couldn't agree with you more that sharing > results (and lineages) is the point, but there's more than one way to do it. > I've just described two avenues that should work for you: Ysearch and the WALSH > project at WFN. I recommend doing both. > > Hope this helps, > Diana > -- "A good moral character is the first essential in a man." George Washington _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._

For every moribund project -- and I'll agree there are some -- there are a dozen active ones, so I wouldn't paint all FTDNA projects with the same brush. Of course, if your project is one of the moribund ones, it's hardly comforting to know you're the exception. You say emails "to the proper people" have had zero results. I'm not going to ask whom you emailed, but in six years of running projects, I can't think of a message I sent that didn't get *some* response, even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear. The new web site design at FTDNA has a "Feedback" item on the menubar towards the top of the page. We are now supposed to use that form to make suggestions or complaints, rather than the old helpdesk@ and info@ email addresses. If a project web page has not been updated since last March, the question is: Has it not been updated because there are no new members or results (i.e., nothing to add)? Or has the project admin really been remiss in updating the site? The reason I ask is... With the financial collapse of 2008, I had a *profound* drop in the number of new members, in all six of my projects, and I'm still not getting new members in anything like the number I was getting before September '08. Is it possible there's nothing to update? If your project admin is not responding to your emails, you definitely have a valid complaint regarding the admin's performance. If you haven't sent a message through the new Feedback form, I would recommend doing so. FTDNA cuts admins a lot of slack with regard to how the run their projects, but its my understanding they will come down hard on an admin if a customer complains to them about an admin not answering emails. Heavens, that's what the "Join Authorization" thing is about -- to exercise some control over admins to make certain they respond to join requests. Hope this helps, Diana P.S. If you want to contact me offlist (email address in message header, above) and tell me the name of the project, I can take a look at it and give my opinion. > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 4:41 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] The view from the outside looking in > > Some lists are dead as the grass in winter. You cannot imagine how > inactive and how little help there is unless you are there. It is > good to read all the comments on these digests and attempt to learn so that one can > figure it out on their own so as not to depend on someone too busy to run a list but still > is listed as a moderator or admin of > such list in name only. A list I am on has not had new results moved > into the proper order since March this year. Emails to the proper > people have zero results. Emails to FTDNA are 100% ineffective. I no > longer encourage anyone to use FTDNA. Why would people spend all this money and > look at all those ads about what these results are going to do > for you when in fact they do nothing for you. They just sit there like > that dead grass outside the window. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject > and the body of the message

Did you try calling FTDNA? Perhaps you have bad email addresses for them. Whenever I have called them with a problem they are very helpful. Just giving up is not very effective. I don't think very many of us have had your experience. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Linda Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 3:41 AM To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] The view from the outside looking in Some lists are dead as the grass in winter. You cannot imagine how inactive and how little help there is unless you are there. It is good to read all the comments on these digests and attempt to learn so that one can figure it out on their own so as not to depend on someone too busy to run a list but still is listed as a moderator or admin of such list in name only. A list I am on has not had new results moved into the proper order since March this year. Emails to the proper people have zero results. Emails to FTDNA are 100% ineffective. I no longer encourage anyone to use FTDNA. Why would people spend all this money and look at all those ads about what these results are going to do for you when in fact they do nothing for you. They just sit there like that dead grass outside the window. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Some lists are dead as the grass in winter. You cannot imagine how inactive and how little help there is unless you are there. It is good to read all the comments on these digests and attempt to learn so that one can figure it out on their own so as not to depend on someone too busy to run a list but still is listed as a moderator or admin of such list in name only. A list I am on has not had new results moved into the proper order since March this year. Emails to the proper people have zero results. Emails to FTDNA are 100% ineffective. I no longer encourage anyone to use FTDNA. Why would people spend all this money and look at all those ads about what these results are going to do for you when in fact they do nothing for you. They just sit there like that dead grass outside the window.

Well, duhhhh. Thank you, Kim. I need a keeper... > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kim Coleman > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:17 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Y-DNA-PROJECTS join authorization > > Diana, > > When you are on the screen looking at your 50 results there will be a link to the right of > each name saying "view" under the profile row. If you click that on the next screen the is > a compare button. This is where you can see their results. > > Kim >

Same here, Larry. While I do use the FTDNA web sites for my projects, I also maintain web sites for my projects on my own domain -- which are, in fact, the "main" web sites for the projects. Because I own these web sites, I am able to and do allow people tested elsewhere to join. It would be interesting to know just how many projects use just the site on the FTDNA server, just the site at WFN, or a site on a privately-owned domain -- or a combination. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Larry Vick > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 9:18 PM > To: bilwalsh@swbell.net; y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] The view from the outside looking in. > > Billie, > > While the vast majority of the members of our VICK Y-DNA Surname Project tested at > FTDNA, we do include results from other labs and companies.  We can do this because > we use World Families for our project site.  We can't compare the haplotypes of those > who tested elsewhere directly to those in the FTDNA database, but we can compare their > haplotypes to those of our project members. We are happy to include them. > > Regards, > > Larry > >

SMGF (the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation) is a non-profit organization backed, at least in part, by philanthropic donations. It was never the intention of the foundation to make a profit. But it's a fact of life that you do "get what you pay for," and most genealogists find the limitations of being tested at SMGF unworkable. Hence the market for commercial DNA testing, despite the fact that someone's giving it away (or at least was). FamilyTreeDNA is a business, in competition with other DNA testing businesses, so you can't expect to avail yourself of their services without paying for them. As an academic, not just a commercial, laboratory, they also have their own reputation to protect, so they aren't going to risk it by allowing the general public to upload results to it. They do, however, provide a free database for people tested elsewhere, called Ysearch: http://www.ysearch.org/ You can take your SMGF results and upload them there, along with a GEDCOM of your patrilineal line, and enjoy most of the benefits you might have received had you been tested at FTDNA. Frankly, I think it's quite generous of them to provide this free service. Most DNA projects at FTDNA make their results public (a pox on the few that don't), so you are not being "locked out" of comparing your results to most of the people tested there. Assuming your surname of interest is WALSH, all you have to do is compare your results to those in the results table of the FTDNA WALSH project, which is based on the WorldFamiliesNetwork web site: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/walsh/results If you have a match with one or more persons in the table, you can email the project admin and ask them to let the member(s) know you would like to be in touch. If they want to be in contact with you, they will respond. Also, given that the WALSH project is based at WFN, they can accept results from labs other than FTDNA, so as long as your a male surnamed, WALSH, I can't see why they wouldn't let you join. These are their instructions for joining: http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/walsh/order Given my earlier messages, I obviously couldn't agree with you more that sharing results (and lineages) is the point, but there's more than one way to do it. I've just described two avenues that should work for you: Ysearch and the WALSH project at WFN. I recommend doing both. Hope this helps, Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Billie Walsh > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 9:06 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] The view from the outside looking in. > > My main interest in having DNA results is to help me break down my brick wall on at > least one of my lines. I won't bore you with all the boring details, just suffice it to say > that my results are from Sorenson and the samples were donated well before just about > anyone had even heard of DNA testing for genealogy. My results were made available for > a pittance. Less than half what FTDNA wants for a Y test I got both my Y and MTDNA. > > Because I didn't spend my money with FTDNA I'm locked out of their data base. I can't > share my details with anyone in their system. That doesn't help me, or anyone else that > may need my information, much. Pretty narrow minded in my opinion. > > Someone that wants to join a group and not share their information with the group > shouldn't be allowed to join. They are not helping anyone, or themselves. The whole > point is to share and help each other. >

I fully agree with Ralph's comments on the advantages of FTDNA vs. Ancestry. There are many additional benefits at FTDNA which Ralph hasn't covered. First and foremost is the ability to upgrade and order additional markers. Currently a 67-marker test is available which is essential for deciding whether or not a match with another surname is meaningful. Some time next year additional markers will be available bringing the total up to over 100 markers. The reporting of micro alleles (eg, 13.3, 14.2) will also further help to refine matches. Micro-alleles will be introduced when the FTDNA database is upgraded in line with the NIST guidelines next spring. I don't believe Ancestry even report micro-alleles. Ancestry do not provide any facility for SNP testing. Their haplogroups are therefore predicted and not confirmed, and there have been numerous examples of people who have subsequently re-tested at FTDNA who have discovered that their haplogroup prediction is wrong. A similar problem applies with the Ancestry mtDNA tests as they again don't do any SNP testing. FTDNA test selected coding region SNPs to confirm the haplogroup for all HVR1 and HVR2 tests as part of the price, and of course there is the option to upgrade to the full sequence test which is not available at Ancestry. For Y-DNA tests FTDNA will do a free haplogroup backbone test if they are unable to predict the haplogroup, and a number of my project members have benefited from this service. FTDNA participants can also benefit from ordering a deep clade test to refine their haplogroup assignment. My dad for instance is R1b1b2a1a4 according to FTDNA nomenclature. FTDNA testees can also benefit from joining the relevant haplogroup project or subclade project. While there are haplogroup projects at Ancestry they are effectively meaningless because of the lack of SNP testing. I have set up projects at Ancestry for my surnames largely as a diversionary measure in an attempt to encourage people to join my own projects rather than testing at Ancestry. My experience is that the project management tools provided by FTDNA are far superior to those provided by Ancestry, eg, the FTDNA TiP tool for comparing genetic distance, facility to send bulk e-mails to project members, a general fund facility to accept donations, etc. There are a few minor glitches with the new FTDNA system but it is a major upgrade and any problems are usually resolved reasonably promptly. The Ancestry database can be searched free of charge so long as you have an Ancestry account: http://dna.ancestry.com You can search the database by surname. The database is not designed for privacy as the testees' names are displayed unless they choose to remain anonymous. The testees' haplogroups and number of markers tested are shown along with the mtDNA haplogroup if available. If you add your own results to the Ancestry database you can search for matches, but the matching system is very primitive. Many Genographic Project customers have for example entered 12-marker results but there is no way to filter them out of your list of matches. The only information provided is the number of generations to the most recent common ancestor with no indication of the possible range. A 12-marker match is therefore shown as having an MRCA within 12 generations. I don't know if my dad's matches are representative but about 30% or 40% of his matches in the Ancestry database have not even tested at Ancestry, and nearly all appear to be FTDNA/Genographic customers. The Ancestry groups are set to be private by default. I've made my Ancestry groups public but for some reason few people seem to choose this option. Unless I am mistaken, there is no way to display your results on your group pages, so there is no way for people to see the DNA results for any Ancestry group unless they actually join the project. Even then the only way to see the results is to negotiate the cumbersome DNA console. The compare DNA page takes ages to load but it does allow you to put people into subgroups. Everyone is listed by their full name, and there is none of the flexibility we have within the FTDNA system to enter the name of the MRCA instead or to choose whether or not to have the DNA results on public display. Also, anyone can join an Ancestry DNA group, even if they haven't taken a DNA test, so the headline numbers for their projects are very misleading. Debbie Kennett http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CruwysDNA http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Devon

Announcing a new Geographical Project: Jewish_Burgenland http://gap.familytreedna.com/project-profile.aspx This site is an attempt to link Jewish families whose ancestors originate from the Sheva Kehillot (Seven communities) of Burgenland - Eisenstadt, Deutschkreutz (Tzelem), Mattersdorf, Lackenbach, Kobersdorf, Kittsee, and Frauenkirtchen. Also included are the surrounding towns of Schlaining, Rechnitz, Gattendorf, Guessing, Grosspetersdorf and Oberwart. Henry Sinai, Administrator hms.gen@gmail.com

Hi Ralph, While I certainly do not consider the Blair DNA Project my "private fifedom", I do consider it MY project, run by MY rules. I started it over 8 years ago and I'm the one who puts all the time and effort into running the project and maintaining the website. On the other hand, since I am controlling the surname "Blair" I owe it to other Blair to make sure they get the most out of the project. We've all seen surname project that are run by an Admin who is only interested in his own immediate line. Hijacking a surname for this purpose makes me shudder too. But there are far more Project Administrators out there, like me who consider their Projects their's AND are interested in the whole surname. As I stated in a previous message the purpose of the Blair DNA Project is to is to further the genealogical research of the Blair surname through DNA testing. The Blair surname is heavily researched. I won't bore the list with all the details of the Blair DNA Project but will simply say we have over 175 participants who a researching over 125 unique oldest known Blair ancestors. As a results of the Blair DNA Project a large number of the oldest known ancestors have been connected. If anyone is interested in the Blair DNA Project visit http://blairdna.com/. Just because I run my project as a "dictator" doesn't mean the "dictator" is bad. :-) /*Scottish DNA - Better than Life Insurance* /*John* ------------------------------------ John A. Blair Haywards Heath, England _http://blairdna.com_ _mailto:j_blair@blairdna.com_ BLAIR DNA Project Administrator On 12/4/2010 8:42 PM, Ralph Taylor wrote: > Re: "It's my project." > > That raises, I believe, an interesting question, worth examining further: > > To what extent does a project "belong" to the project administrator and to > what extent is serving as the admin a "public trust"? > > While attending the October conference of project admins, it became clear > that, for some admins, their projects were private fiefdoms -- theirs to do > with as they chose and for the sole purpose of furthering their own family > histories. To one who runs a project which includes many people to whom I > can't possibly be related, the thought makes me shudder. > > That puts me more in the "public trust" camp than the "My Project" camp. > > -ralpht_/) > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Hi Diana, I use a separate Information Release Form (http://blairdna.com/information.html), not the one provided by FTDNA. If anyone wants to use it they are welcome. /*Scottish DNA - Better than Life Insurance* /*John* ------------------------------------ John A. Blair Haywards Heath, England _http://blairdna.com_ _mailto:j_blair@blairdna.com_ BLAIR DNA Project Administrator On 12/4/2010 8:40 PM, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > John, > > Thank you for expressing your agreement on the issue of Join Authorization, but > I'm afraid in the case of releasing identity... > > Signing the Release simply means the person is willing to share their name and > email address with their matches in the FTDNA database and in the privacy of > their member page at FTDNA. It does not give license to the project admin to > reveal these to anyone, for any reason, much less to display them on a public > web site. > > Please read the FTDNA Privacy Policy and the linked Release: > http://www.familytreedna.com/privacy-policy.aspx > > IMO, you are taking a legal risk upon yourself, personally, by revealing the > identities and email addresses of your project members. I wouldn't touch this > one with a ten-foot pole. If someone contacts me and wants to get in touch > with a project member, I email their request to the member and let the member > decide whether or not to respond. I strongly advocate this policy, and for an > additional reason... > > If projects are revealing the names and addresses of test subjects, how > confident can potential FTDNA customers be that their identity won't be > revealed? You may be losing potential members, for yourself and for other > projects, without even being aware of it. > > Diana > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- >> bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John A. Blair >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 1:57 PM >> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] join authorization >> >> I'm John Blair, Project Administrator for the Blair DNA Project and I >> > completely agree with > >> Diane. >> >> The purpose of the Blair DNA Project is to further the genealogical research >> > of the Blair > >> surname (through DNA testing), not simply to provide discounted DNA tests to >> > people > >> with the surname Blair. >> >> The Blair DNA Project is a give and take proposition. In order to get >> > something out of the > >> project you must be willing to put something into the project. >> >> The primary thing that a participant must put into the project (besides his >> > DNA) is his > >> pedigree chart. He must also allow me to post his kit number, test results, >> > and oldest > >> known Blair ancestor on the Blair DNA website. >> >> In return, I promise not give out any other information without the >> > participant's written > >> permission. All participants (especially those with matches) are strongly >> > encouraged to > >> fill out and sign an Information Release Form, allowing me to publish their >> > name, email > >> address and pedigree chart (minus living information). If they don't want >> > their name and > >> email address published I will act as the contact and direct specific member >> > queries to > >> them. >> >> If a person is not willing to abide by these requirement or won't provide the >> > pedigree > >> information they will not be allowed in the project and can buy their DNA test >> > directly > >> from FTDNA or some other company and pay the full non-project price. >> >> /*Scottish DNA - Better than Life Insurance* >> /*John* >> ------------------------------------ >> John A. Blair >> Haywards Heath, England >> _http://blairdna.com_ >> _mailto:j_blair@blairdna.com_ >> BLAIR DNA Project Administrator >> >> On 12/4/2010 3:29 AM, Gregory Morley wrote: >> >>> Diane, I respectfully disagree with you. Why must there be reciprocity in a >>> > voluntary > >> project? Why must you have leverage over researchers who do not wish to >> > disclose their > >> research? Why must you kick them out if they don't cooperate with your >> > demands? > >>> I will agree with you if you're implying that it's frustrating to see 67 >>> > alleles without > >> knowing the pedigree associated with the contributor. But it's fallacious >> > reasoning to > >> suggest that participants who don't reveal should not be helped. It's not an >> > either-or; it's > >> a logical choice and one all of us reserve the right to exercise. >> >>> Put it another way: What is the breadth and depth of data are you willing to >>> > disclose to > >> participants who provide fully to you their Y-DNA results? Do you reciprocate >> > and offer > >> them all of your research including those persons still living, or just the >> > deceased? > >>> Regards, >>> >>> Gregory Morley >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: >>> >>> I have "authority" over my group, too. What I can't control is >>> whether or not someone gives me their lineage. What do you do if >>> someone doesn't give you their lineage? Withholding membership is the >>> *only* leverage I have, short of kicking them out of the project, which >>> > isn't the desired > >> goal. >> >>> As for Ancestry.com being a "superior lab," I won't bite on that one. >>> >>> Diana >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- >>>> bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Acree >>>> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 6:09 PM >>>> To:y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] join authorization >>>> >>>> It sound like FTDNA is injudiciously biting the hands that have so >>>> obligingly >>>> >>>> >>> fed it. >>> >>> >>>> Please excuse me for rubbing it in, but we simply don't have such >>>> problems >>>> >>>> >>> with our >>> >>> >>>> projects (called "groups') at Ancestry.com. >>>> >>>> As project administrator there, I exercise full approval authority. >>>> I'm able >>>> >>>> >>> to display test >>> >>> >>>> results in multiple configurations that I consider helpful. And I >>>> fully >>>> >>>> >>> control material >>> >>> >>>> contributed to our group's home page. It's rare when things don't >>>> run >>>> >>>> >>> smoothly; and >>> >>> >>>> when they don't, we enjoy the benefit of consistently friendly, >>>> responsive and cooperative assistance. Moreover, searches for >>>> matches are far easier within Ancestry.com's public data base, and we >>>> have the benefit of a superior lab, >>>> >>>> >>> which >>> >>> >>>> provides us more precise test results (including partial STR repeats >>>> when >>>> >>>> >>> applicable) in >>> >>> >>>> convenient numerical order. >>>> >>>> Charles Acree >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> toY-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >>> toY-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS- >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >> > subject > >> and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Billie - have you entered your results into Y-Search ( www.ysearch.org ) ? On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> wrote: > My main interest in having DNA results is to help me break down my brick > wall on at least one of my lines. I won't bore you with all the boring > details, just suffice it to say that my results are from Sorenson and > the samples were donated well before just about anyone had even heard of > DNA testing for genealogy. My results were made available for a > pittance. Less than half what FTDNA wants for a Y test I got both my Y > and MTDNA. > > Because I didn't spend my money with FTDNA I'm locked out of their data > base. I can't share my details with anyone in their system. That doesn't > help me, or anyone else that may need my information, much. Pretty > narrow minded in my opinion. > > Someone that wants to join a group and not share their information with > the group shouldn't be allowed to join. They are not helping anyone, or > themselves. The whole point is to share and help each other. > > -- > "A good moral character is the first essential in a man." George Washington > > _ _... ..._ _ > _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Diana, When you are on the screen looking at your 50 results there will be a link to the right of each name saying "view" under the profile row. If you click that on the next screen the is a compare button. This is where you can see their results. Kim "I just checked a group I belong to at DNA-Ancestry.com, and when I search on the surname, I get 50 hits. When I go to the surname group, there are only 15 members. Doesn't this imply that there are 35 individuals tested, with this surname, who haven't joined the group? How would I see their results?"

My main interest in having DNA results is to help me break down my brick wall on at least one of my lines. I won't bore you with all the boring details, just suffice it to say that my results are from Sorenson and the samples were donated well before just about anyone had even heard of DNA testing for genealogy. My results were made available for a pittance. Less than half what FTDNA wants for a Y test I got both my Y and MTDNA. Because I didn't spend my money with FTDNA I'm locked out of their data base. I can't share my details with anyone in their system. That doesn't help me, or anyone else that may need my information, much. Pretty narrow minded in my opinion. Someone that wants to join a group and not share their information with the group shouldn't be allowed to join. They are not helping anyone, or themselves. The whole point is to share and help each other. -- "A good moral character is the first essential in a man." George Washington _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._

I'm John Blair, Project Administrator for the Blair DNA Project and I completely agree with Diane. The purpose of the Blair DNA Project is to further the genealogical research of the Blair surname (through DNA testing), not simply to provide discounted DNA tests to people with the surname Blair. The Blair DNA Project is a give and take proposition. In order to get something out of the project you must be willing to put something into the project. The primary thing that a participant must put into the project (besides his DNA) is his pedigree chart. He must also allow me to post his kit number, test results, and oldest known Blair ancestor on the Blair DNA website. In return, I promise not give out any other information without the participant's written permission. All participants (especially those with matches) are strongly encouraged to fill out and sign an Information Release Form, allowing me to publish their name, email address and pedigree chart (minus living information). If they don't want their name and email address published I will act as the contact and direct specific member queries to them. If a person is not willing to abide by these requirement or won't provide the pedigree information they will not be allowed in the project and can buy their DNA test directly from FTDNA or some other company and pay the full non-project price. /*Scottish DNA - Better than Life Insurance* /*John* ------------------------------------ John A. Blair Haywards Heath, England _http://blairdna.com_ _mailto:j_blair@blairdna.com_ BLAIR DNA Project Administrator On 12/4/2010 3:29 AM, Gregory Morley wrote: > Diane, I respectfully disagree with you. Why must there be reciprocity in a voluntary project? Why must you have leverage over researchers who do not wish to disclose their research? Why must you kick them out if they don't cooperate with your demands? > > I will agree with you if you're implying that it's frustrating to see 67 alleles without knowing the pedigree associated with the contributor. But it's fallacious reasoning to suggest that participants who don't reveal should not be helped. It's not an either-or; it's a logical choice and one all of us reserve the right to exercise. > > Put it another way: What is the breadth and depth of data are you willing to disclose to participants who provide fully to you their Y-DNA results? Do you reciprocate and offer them all of your research including those persons still living, or just the deceased? > > Regards, > > Gregory Morley > > > > On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > > I have "authority" over my group, too. What I can't control is whether or not > someone gives me their lineage. What do you do if someone doesn't give you > their lineage? Withholding membership is the *only* leverage I have, short of > kicking them out of the project, which isn't the desired goal. > > As for Ancestry.com being a "superior lab," I won't bite on that one. > > Diana > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- >> bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Acree >> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 6:09 PM >> To:y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] join authorization >> >> It sound like FTDNA is injudiciously biting the hands that have so obligingly >> > fed it. > >> Please excuse me for rubbing it in, but we simply don't have such problems >> > with our > >> projects (called "groups') at Ancestry.com. >> >> As project administrator there, I exercise full approval authority. I'm able >> > to display test > >> results in multiple configurations that I consider helpful. And I fully >> > control material > >> contributed to our group's home page. It's rare when things don't run >> > smoothly; and > >> when they don't, we enjoy the benefit of consistently friendly, responsive and >> cooperative assistance. Moreover, searches for matches are far easier within >> Ancestry.com's public data base, and we have the benefit of a superior lab, >> > which > >> provides us more precise test results (including partial STR repeats when >> > applicable) in > >> convenient numerical order. >> >> Charles Acree >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toY-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email toY-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Well said. I agree, and I hope I fall in the category of "benevolent dictator." (Ever mindful that power corrupts.) Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John A. Blair > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 5:38 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Y-DNA-PROJECTS join authorization > > Hi Ralph, > > While I certainly do not consider the Blair DNA Project my "private fifedom", I do > consider it MY project, run by MY rules. I started it over 8 years ago and I'm the one who > puts all the time and effort into running the project and maintaining the website. > > On the other hand, since I am controlling the surname "Blair" I owe it to other Blair to > make sure they get the most out of the project. We've all seen surname project that are > run by an Admin who is only interested in his own immediate line. Hijacking a surname > for this purpose makes me shudder too. But there are far more Project Administrators > out there, like me who consider their Projects their's AND are interested in the whole > surname. As I stated in a previous message the purpose of the Blair DNA Project is to is > to further the genealogical research of the Blair surname through DNA testing. > > The Blair surname is heavily researched. I won't bore the list with all the details of the > Blair DNA Project but will simply say we have over > 175 participants who a researching over 125 unique oldest known Blair ancestors. As a > results of the Blair DNA Project a large number of the oldest known ancestors have been > connected. If anyone is interested in the Blair DNA Project visit http://blairdna.com/. > > Just because I run my project as a "dictator" doesn't mean the "dictator" is bad. :-) >

> -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Taylor > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 5:24 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Y-DNA-PROJECTS join authorization > > There's a mistake in "..contrasting it with FTDNA's data base, which doesn't provide > detailed search capability - that function being delegated to its Y-Search facility, which > contains a subset of persons tested." > > The mistake is the implication that FTDNA clients & project admins can not search the > FTDNA database of ~100,000 Y-STR result sets for matches; they can. Any FTDNA client > (whether or not a project participant) who's agreed to share information can search > FTDNA's database, as can any project administrator on behalf of participants who've > agreed to share. The "matchees" must have consented to this release of information; > most FTDNA clients consent (else, they'd be unable to search). The "matching" supplied to the member at FTDNA is not the equivalent of being able to "search" the database. The member is only supplied "hits" for their own results, and all they get is a list of names and email addresses, not the test results or the Kit#, which is the key piece of information for finding their test results and earliest ancestor in the project's results table. If your matchee doesn't reply to your email, you don't find out anything. No one, outside of FTDNA employees, can sit down and "explore" (search/browse) the FTDNA database. > Clients & admins need Y-search only to find matches with those tested by other > providers; FTDNA-hosted Y-search is to allow FTDNA clients (& others) to find matches > with both those who are & those who are NOT in the FTDNA database. (Or, the unusual > case in which a FTDNA client has not agreed to FTDNA sharing, but has input into Y- > search.) Even if you're an FTDNA member, you still need to upload to Ysearch to *see the results* of other FTDNA members. > For an individual client, it's simple to find matches in the FTDNA database: > Log on to www.familytreedna.com with kit number & password and click the "Matches" > link on the "My FTDNA" page. A list of matches to the client meeting specific criteria will > appear. A real search of the database would return the results and Kit numbers, not just the names and email addresses, and there is NOWHERE you can go to do a search for something other than your own results. Guess what? I'm female. I have no Y-DNA results. If I want to check the matches of key relatives, I either have to find a cousin and pay for his test or talk someone into giving my their password -- which I don't do because I don't want the responsibility of having someone else's password. I have found cousins to test my near male lines, but what am I supposed to do about lines where I can't find male cousins? If the FTDNA database were truly "searchable," I could search for my other male lines in it. <snip> > > In either case, the entire FTDNA database of consenting client results is searched, > subject only to consents & restrictions the client (or admin) imposes. Hopefully, this sets > the record straight on FTDNA database searching. It's not a "search" in any conventional meaning of "searching a database." The search does not return results, only an option to contact someone, who may optionally not respond. I'm not arguing that the FTDNA database should be searchable by the public. I agree that it shouldn't be -- that's what Ysearch is for. But I think it's misleading to say the FTDNA database is "searchable." All you're getting is a automated list of contact names -- no results, no kit numbers, and no earliest ancestors, which are the fields any researcher would want returned with any conventional "search" of the database. Diana > > -ralpht_/) > >

Billie,   While the vast majority of the members of our VICK Y-DNA Surname Project tested at FTDNA, we do include results from other labs and companies.  We can do this because we use World Families for our project site.  We can't compare the haplotypes of those who tested elsewhere directly to those in the FTDNA database, but we can compare their haplotypes to those of our project members.  We are happy to include them.   Regards,   Larry ________________________________ From: Billie Walsh <bilwalsh@swbell.net> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, December 4, 2010 9:06:14 PM Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] The view from the outside looking in. Because I didn't spend my money with FTDNA  I'm locked out of their data base. I can't share my details with anyone in their system. That doesn't help me, or anyone else that may need my information, much. Pretty narrow minded in my opinion.

Well, we have the answer as to why they instituted this mechanisms: to ride herd on admins who were not responding to join requests. I can understand the *reason* for doing this, but I still feel its implementation is a total *kludge*. And much of the kludginess would be removed if the GAP would simply send me an email COPY of each message, so I have something to file in my email client -- and a quick way to review that correspondence. What they should have done is simply expand the method we once used to Allow/Disallow people already tested to join. The unanswered requests sat there on the GAP, so FTDNA knew whether we were answering their request, one way or another, and at least we had their email address, so we could correspond with them easily, until the decision was made. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Raymond > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:23 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] FTDNA sending threatening emails > > Since the GAP 2 change I have been unable to even send a reply to a join request entered > in the FTDNA systems...I have reported this numerous times but get the same reply that > IT has fixed the problem...now I received this email the other day...notice the line > "Barring the cleaning out..."... > <snip>

Oops, I was preaching to the choir, I see. Apologies. Still, if there was any admin out there who hadn't read the FTDNA policy, I hope you have, now. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John A. Blair > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 4:21 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] join authorization > > Hi Diana, > > I use a separate Information Release Form (http://blairdna.com/information.html), not > the one provided by FTDNA. > If anyone wants to use it they are welcome. > > /*Scottish DNA - Better than Life Insurance* > /*John*