Carol FTDNA charge US $6 to post a DNA kit to the UK. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think they quote postage costs anywhere on their website and you only find out when you place the order. Debbie Kennett

> From: Carol Botteron > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 4:59 PM > > You automatically have a General Fund started already. > > On your GAP's Home page, over in the right-hand column > > of links, the third one down should say, "General Fund." > > Yes, I looked at that but didn't know what to do with it. You talk people into donating to it. :-) <snip> > How do I find out the cost of a test (for a group member) plus > shipping to England? FTDNA used to have a page with group costs > but I can't find it any more. I you go to your GAP Home Page, in the right hand column is an item called, "Price Comparison," that will give you both the "Retail" price and the group price. <snip> > > Thank you. Your link to > http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=Co rbin > is what I needed. Be sure you go to your own project Home Page and get the link from there. If you use the line above, people will be donating to my Corbin project. I wouldn't mind, of course, but I don't think that's the result you want. Diana

Yes, S&H (shipping & handling) is $6 international -- and $4 domestic. > From: Debbie Kennett > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:04 PM > > FTDNA charge US $6 to post a DNA kit to the UK. Unless > I'm mistaken I don't think they quote postage costs > anywhere on their website and you only find > out when you place the order. > > Debbie Kennett

At 6:41 PM -0700 1/20/11, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > From: Carol Botteron > > I administer three smallish projects at FTDNA. I would >> like to set up a General Fund but am not sure how to do >> it. The GAP page and the FAQ at >> http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/default.aspx?faqid=20 >> do not say how to start a fund. >> >> I'd appreciate a pointer to "How to" instructions, and/or >> the benefit of people's experience. >> >> A prospective donor offered to pay for a test if an >> applicant meets certain criteria. An applicant's >> pedigree is now being evaluated. If he meets the >> criteria, I'm picturing something like: >> >> (1) I somehow set up a General Fund for this project. > >You automatically have a General Fund started already. On your GAP's >Home page, over in the right-hand column of links, the third one down >should say, "General Fund." Yes, I looked at that but didn't know what to do with it. > > (2) Donor puts enough money into the fund to pay for >> a test (using credit card or whatever). > >Yes. I tell people that, because I'm a volunteer, the money should >not pass through my hands, and I recommend that they not send each >other checks, either. ... > >> (3) Applicant applies to join the group, I accept. > > (4) Applicant orders a test. What does he do about payment? > >The individual should purchase the kit using the *Invoice* method of >payment. ... Good, makes sense. How do I find out the cost of a test (for a group member) plus shipping to England? FTDNA used to have a page with group costs but I can't find it any more. > > (5) I tell FTDNA that this applicant's test is to be >> paid for by the general fund. (Assuming FTDNA needs >> his kit number for this.) > >When you get the email indicating the new member has purchased his >kit, then immediately email FTDNA at >groupgeneralfund@familytreedna.com >and tell them to pay for the kit from the project's General Fund, >giving the Kit# and name of the individual. Because the balance due >on the Invoice is zero, a paper Invoice (bill) will not even be >included in the kit. > >If you want to put a link to your project's General Fund in an email >or on your personal web site, you will need the specific URL. To get >it, you need to go to your project web site at FTDNA and, near the >bottom of the home page, under the heading, "General Fund," click on >"Click Here," then use the URL of that page. The assumption here is >that you have set the General Fund links to be displayed on the "Site >Configuration" tab of your "Project Website" page. > >You can read an example of how I describe donations for my personal >project web pages here: >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Corbin/CorbinDNA.html#GeneralFund Thank you. Your link to http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=Corbin is what I needed.

James For RecLohs you need to look at the multi-copy markers and especially DYS 464 and CDY a and b. You will typically see matching pairs, eg, 16-16, 39-39. If there's a RecLoh on DYS 464 you will have four identical values (eg, 15-15-15-15). A number of the multi-copy markers can be affected in a single RecLoh event. Presumably as mutations happen entirely at random not all twin values are the result of RecLohs and some values are identical purely by chance. I'm not sure what FTDNA are doing with the genetic distance reports now. I prefer their old system. With my two Aldous men where one has a RecLoh I can't even produce a genetic distance report any more. I get a message saying "no data", presumably because the genetic distance is huge as a result of the RecLoh. I am going to send FTDNA some feedback. Debbie

Thanks, Diana - there at last, and I've found some lurking in my project! However for calculating Genetic Distance I see FTDNA's former composite model took account of recLOHs, and of course recLOHs are irrelevant in the Infinite Allele model they are now using in GAP 2.0. Right? James -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 1:13 AM To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Y-DNA-PROJECTS Intersting Situation - Thanks > From: James Irvine > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:58 PM > > Sorry, much preoccupied with other things at present. Yes, > i believe TiP takes recLOHs into account (though I wouldn't > swear my memory is correct). Alas despite Diana's > relatively clear explanation I still couldn't recognize > a recLOH - I just don't Know if my project has any! I have an example of a recLOH that's pretty clear: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Corbin/CorbinDNA-results-HgR1b-Sherman.html#data This is my CORBIN with an NPE who is really a SHERMAN. Most of the individuals in the table are the modal 19,23 at YCAII, but note the bottom two rows in the table (red table cells). These clearly represent a single recLOH in a common ancestor (as opposed to two independent recLOH events) as they both share another mutation at DYS481. Diana ______________________________ PLEASE trim the amount you backquote in your replies to the minimum, especially if you subscribe in DIGEST mode. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This list, like many other lists at RootsWeb, has just experienced a mass unsubbing of their subscribers. One reason this happens is that an ISP has decided RootsWeb is a spammer and rejects list messages, to which the RootsWeb listserver responds by unsubbing the subscribers. (A requirement of list membership is that you accept list messages.) If at any time you get a notice that you've been removed from a RootsWeb mailing list when you had no intention of leaving, please check with your ISP to make certain they have not decided RootsWeb is a spammer. This is not something RootsWeb can fix because, at this point, your ISP considers RootsWeb a spammer, so won't listen to complaints from them. Their own customers have to be the ones making the complaint. Once you have your ISP's agreement to not block your list messages, then you need to re-subscribe to the list. Sorry for the hassle, but things like this happen when you put computers in charge of making decisions, in this case, deciding who is or is not a spammer. Diana Y-DNA-PROJECTS Listadmin

> From: James Irvine > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 4:28 AM > > Thanks, Diana - there at last, and I've found some lurking in my > project! > > However for calculating Genetic Distance I see FTDNA's former > composite model took account of recLOHs, and of course recLOHs > are irrelevant in the Infinite Allele model they are now using > in GAP 2.0. Right? I'm afraid I've never used the Genetic Distance calculator on my GAP, so I have no idea how it works. If I need a GD, I will calculate it myself. One of the biggest problems in paper genealogy is people making connections on too little evidence, to which I say: a bad connection is *not* better than no connection. I carry the same attitude into my DNA projects. If a match is good it's generally so obvious it hits you in the face, and I don't need a GD calculator to see it. If it isn't obvious, I don't call it a match because then you're making the same mistake novice genealogists make. It seems to me the urge to group as many project members as possible leads some project admins to group too aggressively. IMO, it's better to leave people unassigned than to group them incorrectly. If you like, I can give you an example of a project that groups overzealously, but in a private email because I'd rather not criticize a project on the list. [The admin is not a subscriber to this list, so y'all can relax.] The admin even brags on the project's home page that, "...in the [_____] project, 86% of the [______]s tested have at least one meaningful match. Truly an amazing percentage." And it would be, if it didn't actually mean he groups people too readily. It's a large project, and it appears the admin is using percent probabilities *alone* in his decisions to place people in groups -- with the bar set to low. I'll admit to having an advantage because I've standardized on 67 markers for my projects, and with 67 markers, it's *very* much easier to tell when you've got a match, or not. It is also the case that I do not admit a member without them supplying the paper genealogy of their patrilineal line. I may know, from the moment they purchase their kit, whom they should match. When their results return, they either will or won't match an existing group and, if not, they remained unassigned until someone new matches them. My other advantage is that I am not working on common surnames: three are rare and two are relatively uncommon. I know these surnames well as I've been studying them for years, and we have most of the major American progenitors tested. The major goal, at this point, is crossing the pond. Still, when it comes to using data on "my" families extracted from other, larger projects, I find myself using the same m.o. I use in my own projects. When it's a match, it's obvious, provided they've tested enough markers. Diana

Ralph The FTDNA TiP does indeed allow for RecLoh's and null markers. We have a very unusual result in the Aldous DNA project with both a RecLoh and a null marker: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Aldous/default.aspx?section=yresults They do not show up in each other's match pages but when I use the TiP I get the following result: In comparing Y-DNA37 markers, which show 7 mismatches, the probability that (N2041) ... Aldous and (147566) .... Aldous shared a common ancestor within the last... ...4 generations is 0.05%. ...8 generations is 2.12%. ...12 generations is 12.52%. ...16 generations is 32.58%. ...20 generations is 55.47%. ...24 generations is 74.32%. The two men share a paper trail ancestor in the mid 1400s. Debbie Kennett

> From: Carol Botteron > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:16 PM > > I administer three smallish projects at FTDNA. I would > like to set up a General Fund but am not sure how to do > it. The GAP page and the FAQ at > http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/default.aspx?faqid=20 > do not say how to start a fund. > > I'd appreciate a pointer to "How to" instructions, and/or > the benefit of people's experience. > > A prospective donor offered to pay for a test if an > applicant meets certain criteria. An applicant's > pedigree is now being evaluated. If he meets the > criteria, I'm picturing something like: > > (1) I somehow set up a General Fund for this project. You automatically have a General Fund started already. On your GAP's Home page, over in the right-hand column of links, the third one down should say, "General Fund." > (2) Donor puts enough money into the fund to pay for > a test (using credit card or whatever). Yes. I tell people that, because I'm a volunteer, the money should not pass through my hands, and I recommend that they not send each other checks, either. I had someone send someone a check, who cashed it, but then didn't follow through and purchase the kit. > (3) Applicant applies to join the group, I accept. > (4) Applicant orders a test. What does he do about > payment? The individual should purchase the kit using the *Invoice* method of payment. If the purchaser uses a credit card to pay for the kit, then FTDNA will have to issue a refund on the credit card, later. The charge and the refund could hit different billing cycles, so the person would have to pay his credit card bill (or pay the interest), and wait to be credited with the refund. > (5) I tell FTDNA that this applicant's test is to be > paid for by the general fund. (Assuming FTDNA needs > his kit number for this.) When you get the email indicating the new member has purchased his kit, then immediately email FTDNA at groupgeneralfund@familytreedna.com and tell them to pay for the kit from the project's General Fund, giving the Kit# and name of the individual. Because the balance due on the Invoice is zero, a paper Invoice (bill) will not even be included in the kit. If you want to put a link to your project's General Fund in an email or on your personal web site, you will need the specific URL. To get it, you need to go to your project web site at FTDNA and, near the bottom of the home page, under the heading, "General Fund," click on "Click Here," then use the URL of that page. The assumption here is that you have set the General Fund links to be displayed on the "Site Configuration" tab of your "Project Website" page. You can read an example of how I describe donations for my personal project web pages here: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Corbin/CorbinDNA.html#GeneralFund Diana P.S.

> From: James Irvine > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:58 PM > > Sorry, much preoccupied with other things at present. Yes, > i believe TiP takes recLOHs into account (though I wouldn't > swear my memory is correct). Alas despite Diana's > relatively clear explanation I still couldn't recognize > a recLOH - I just don't Know if my project has any! I have an example of a recLOH that's pretty clear: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Corbin/CorbinDNA-results-HgR1b-Sherman.html#data This is my CORBIN with an NPE who is really a SHERMAN. Most of the individuals in the table are the modal 19,23 at YCAII, but note the bottom two rows in the table (red table cells). These clearly represent a single recLOH in a common ancestor (as opposed to two independent recLOH events) as they both share another mutation at DYS481. Diana

Sorry, much preoccupied with other things at present. Yes,i believe TiP takes recLOHs into account (though I wouldn't swear my memory is correct). Alas despite Diana's relatively clear explanation I still couldn't recognize a recLOH - I just don't Know if my project has any! James. -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Taylor Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:32 PM To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Y-DNA-PROJECTS Intersting Situation - Thanks A follow-up question about part of Diana's answer: "The importance of recLOH's is that, despite causing a count difference of more than one, they represent one mutation event (i.e., a genetic distance of one). If you count each numerical difference as a single-step mutation, you will over-estimate the genetic distance between individuals. " My understanding is that the FTDNATiP calculator algorithm takes this into account. Is that so? Or, am I mistaken? -ralpht_/) ______________________________ PLEASE trim the amount you backquote in your replies to the minimum, especially if you subscribe in DIGEST mode. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I administer three smallish projects at FTDNA. I would like to set up a General Fund but am not sure how to do it. The GAP page and the FAQ at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/default.aspx?faqid=20 do not say how to start a fund. I'd appreciate a pointer to "How to" instructions, and/or the benefit of people's experience. A prospective donor offered to pay for a test if an applicant meets certain criteria. An applicant's pedigree is now being evaluated. If he meets the criteria, I'm picturing something like: (1) I somehow set up a General Fund for this project. (2) Donor puts enough money into the fund to pay for a test (using credit card or whatever). (3) Applicant applies to join the group, I accept. (4) Applicant orders a test. What does he do about payment? (5) I tell FTDNA that this applicant's test is to be paid for by the general fund. (Assuming FTDNA needs his kit number for this.) Clearly I need help. adTHANKSvance! Carol B.

Thanks Diana , Will do some follow up and hope to find a connection. Janis Definitely worth following up. CDY is so volatile, some people even ignore it. YCAII and 511 are not usually grouped among the "fast" markers. The "slop factor" in terms of number of generations is so great, calculating it is pretty much a waste of time, IMO. I prefer to think in terms of whether the match could or could not be within "genealogical time." With a GD of four, it probably is, especially if you have the same surname. This page gives a realistic, practical appraisal: http://www.familytreedna.com/genetic-distance-markers.aspx?testtype=67

A follow-up question about part of Diana's answer: "The importance of recLOH's is that, despite causing a count difference of more than one, they represent one mutation event (i.e., a genetic distance of one). If you count each numerical difference as a single-step mutation, you will over-estimate the genetic distance between individuals. " My understanding is that the FTDNATiP calculator algorithm takes this into account. Is that so? Or, am I mistaken? -ralpht_/)

If you take a closer look at your markers for those which vary from the R1b modal and ignore some that may be "faster" moving and/or vary dramatically from the modal thus pushing out some matches when left in, you may reveal some additional matches. For the few that you have found, are they all with the same surname or something different? Have you tried making manual comparisons in SMGF or ancestry.com for other potential matches? Or surname projects - both yours and those of the matches you do have? On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Fredric Z. Saunders <fzsaund@ix.netcom.com>wrote: > I thought I would pass on my results from upgrading from 37 to 67 markers. > I had (and still have) as a projected R1b1b2 no 12 marker matches, one > 23/25 > with another surname that falls away at 37 markers, and no 37 marker > matches. It was suggested on the list that (as I know) that sometimes > matches might not appear at lower levels, but appear at a higher number of > markers. > > I just received my results for 67 markers, and I have one 60/67 with > another > surname on FTDNA. At ysaerch I have two 61/67 and one 60/67 with that > surname. I think I come from a long line of just having enough males in > each generation to keep the line from daughtering out. > > FMUDM on ysearch > > Rick Saunders > > > > ______________________________ > PLEASE trim the amount you backquote in your replies to the minimum, > especially if you subscribe in DIGEST mode. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Definitely worth following up. CDY is so volatile, some people even ignore it. YCAII and 511 are not usually grouped among the "fast" markers. The "slop factor" in terms of number of generations is so great, calculating it is pretty much a waste of time, IMO. I prefer to think in terms of whether the match could or could not be within "genealogical time." With a GD of four, it probably is, especially if you have the same surname. This page gives a realistic, practical appraisal: http://www.familytreedna.com/genetic-distance-markers.aspx?testtype=67 Diana > From: hessen4 > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:50 PM > > I have a 63/67 match we differ as follows; > on YCA IIa 23/24 , on CDYa 36/37, on CDYb 39/38 , 511 11/10 > > Is this a match which I should follow up on? > Are these markers fast or slow markers/ > What would you guess the number of generations back to a common > ancestor be?

Oh good grief, of course. That'll teach me to play the smart ass. I plead senior moment. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Debbie Kennett > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:59 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Intersting Situation - Thanks > > RecLoh stands for recombinational loss of heterozygosity: > > http://www.isogg.org/wiki/RecLOH > > Debbie Kennett

I thought I would pass on my results from upgrading from 37 to 67 markers. I had (and still have) as a projected R1b1b2 no 12 marker matches, one 23/25 with another surname that falls away at 37 markers, and no 37 marker matches. It was suggested on the list that (as I know) that sometimes matches might not appear at lower levels, but appear at a higher number of markers. I just received my results for 67 markers, and I have one 60/67 with another surname on FTDNA. At ysaerch I have two 61/67 and one 60/67 with that surname. I think I come from a long line of just having enough males in each generation to keep the line from daughtering out. FMUDM on ysearch Rick Saunders

are we able to pin down Scottish modal's as clearly as the Irish ones? if so, what are the dys specific groups? I'm still interested in dys 572 with 9 markers. it's unheard of among the Moores, except for one haplo E, and my husband, who is an L21+. Cornelia Message: Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 16:29:22 +1100 From: "Irish III DNA" Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Intersting Situation - Thanks To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sandy, Am I reading you correctly that you are saying that your DYS459=9,9 and DYS464=15,15,15,15 ? If so, then what is called a recLOH (recent loss of homogeneity) has occurred. What happens here is that an area where these markers lie is a palindrome, a loop back on itself, and one side copies to the other, loosing the original values. It is not uncommon for several markers to change at once, so DYS459 could change from 8,9 to 9,9 while DYS464 can change from 13,13,15,15 to 15,15,15,15 and even YCAII from 19, 23 to perhaps 23,23. BTW is your DYS463=25 ? This is another indication of Irish Type III membership. Dennis Wright t Dennis, thanks for the information on your website. I just looked at and will study further what I found. The DYS markers values for 459 and 464 do fall within those you asked about. My cousin's 459a,b is 9, and the 464a,b is 15. Again, thanks to each of you for your valuable comments and suggestions ! Sandy Coulter _________________ PLEASE trim the amount you backquote in your replies to the minimum, especially if you subscribe in DIGEST mode. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com [4] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Links: ------ [1] mailto:dna@irishtype3dna.org [2] mailto:y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com [3] mailto:BFECJOAEEPCFBFFLLBGPIEFAHMAA.dna@irishtype3dna.org [4] mailto:Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com