Jim Berry is the administrator, and I am the co-administrator of the BERRY project. There are over 110 participants, at least 40 distinct BERRY lineages including multiple haplogroups. On the 1790 US Census, there were approximately 350 Heads of Household named BERRY. Virginia, Tennessee and Kentucky are not included in the 1790 census -- all three being hotspots for BERRY-ness, so a conservative estimate would add 50 households. I can't even begin to estimate the number of BERRYs in other countries. I am the administrator of the DILLON project and Richard Dillon is the co-administrator. We only have 15 participants. There were only 21 DILLON Heads of Household on the 1790 US Census, but I believe that number escalates dramatically after 1850 when the Irish potato famine immigration was at its peak. DILLON also has a fair number of variant spellings which I haven't tried to find on the 1790 census. I am an 'unofficial' administrator of the ALEXANDER project. Roger Alexander is the administrator. The 1790 census numbers for the ALEXANDER surname are remarkably similar to the BERRY numbers and the number of participants and separate lineages are also similar to the BERRY numbers. Most of the early participants of both the BERRY and ALEXANDER projects -- including the administrators -- fully expected most BERRYs or ALEXANDERs in America during the Colonial era to be closely related. I'll just repeat the same thing that I said earlier. The most powerful lesson I take away from Y-DNA testing is that finding the same surname in the same geographical place in the same time frame does NOT necessarily mean that they were closely related -- genetically. We are seeing this over and over on both the BERRY and ALEXANDER projects. It is not as apparent in the DILLON project, but 11 different lineages out of 15 participants is quite a spread. However, this project was dormant until last Christmas when Richard and I stepped in. I was an art major in college. I have been retired for 13 years after working in the non-profit art world. I have no science background at all, so the fact that I have even a tenuous 'grasp' of Y-DNA is an amazing turn of events. My brother -- surname GLASS -- is one of the members of David's R1b- U106/S21+ project, but I am his contact person since he cares nothing about either genealogy or DNA. As a person heavily involved with basic surname projects, I am eternally grateful to those who have started specific Haplogroup projects because I don't have the knowledge to talk about Haplogroups in depth and certainly can't do the math which seems such an integral part of the analysis. Most of the participants in my projects are truly not interested in Haplogroups anyway, but for those few who are, it's a pleasure to be able to send them to someone who can help. Carol Vass Kent, WA

Diana, Because I administer a couple of the "off-topic" projects, I want to be sure I understand the scope of your list fully. I should add that I am extremely greatful for you starting a list like this. I've lamented the absence of list were we can actually discuss the practical applications of DNA testing to our traditional genealogy research. How far we can stray into topics of deep ancestry, ethnicity and geography (seperate from associated projects)? These are all likely relevent discussion points for surname origins and distribution, to which YDNA testing can contribute to our understanding. For example, even though they not related within a genealogical time frame, most of my WESTONs (including myself) are haplogroup I1* or R1a, which have close affinities to the Scandinavians, presumably Dane and Norse Viking. This has provided me with avenues of research for solidly identifying the first WESTON surname progenitors beyond the questionable paper trails. Since haplogroups and geographic are key to this line of discussion would I be getting off topic with this line of discussion? Cheers, David. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: July 24, 2008 2:51 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] off topic Members will not correct other members for being off topic. That is my prerogative as list admin. If you have a complaint, about anything, message me offlist. You can reach the admin of any RootsWeb mailing list using an address of this form: [email protected] So the listadmin address for this list is [email protected] Sorry you had to be the first one to bump into this, and I see by the smiley that you must have meant it as a joke. But there are not going to be any arguments started on the list because one member declares another off topic. I am seldom away from my computer for more than eight hours (if I should be so lucky as to get that much sleep), so even an off topic thread will not go on for long. Please leave it to me to declare a message or thread off topic, and please just hit your Del key until I do. Thank you, Diana

LOL! Yes, we are probably preaching to the choir here. Most sadly, though, the members of these projects probably have no idea how much *less* they're getting out of their testing than they might have, simply because their project admin is on some kind of power trip. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] On Behalf Of David Weston > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:57 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] sharing of results - rant warning > > Diana, > > To contribute to your rant, this is why it is critical that > all our surname project participants be > strongly encouraged to upload all their YDNA results to > YSearch and YBase, and to set their personal > pages to display matches against the entire company databases > not just their surname project. Doing > so greatly aids those of trying to get through NPEs or > looking for info on other ancestral lines. I > regularly check YSearch to see if some one on one of my other > ancestral lines has tested, and I have > found one by doing so. > > Admins also have to get themselves out of their mindset that > it is "their" data. It's not. It's > the participants and the participant should be the one who > decides who gets to see it our not. > Admins who behave otherwise do themselves and their > participants a great disservice. > > But then again Admins who are overly controlling of their > participants YDNA are likely not on this > list because that would require being open minded. :-) > > David. >

David brought up the matter of whether he could talk about the early, pre-paper ancestry of his WESTONs on this list, and I had to say no, because I thought these could best be discussed on a haplogroup or regional list -- or GENEALOGY-DNA. But there is another option. Have you considered opening a WESTON-DNA mailing list? I see there isn't one: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/ I've opened a surname-DNA list for each of my projects, and I don't think I can conceive of having a project without one. The problem with a WESTON-DNA list might be that, for discussions that are "pre-paper," it might not give you a broad enough audience. A haplogroup or regional list might still be the way to go. Diana

Throwing away thirty years of research happened in the Oden project, but it was not the result of a MAP, as far as we know. The problem is that two men, Solomon Oden and Thomas Oden lived in the same county at approximately the same time. Descendants of Solomon spent 30 years trying to connect Solomon to Thomas's family. Genetic testing showed there was no biological connection between the two families. Solomon is in the I1 haplogroup and Thomas is R1b1b2. Oden is a common surname in the Scandinavian countries which would go along with the I1 haplogroup. The other Oden family has English, and possibly further back French origins, as the name may have evolved from Odeon. I am afraid I do not have much sympathy with people who cling to pedigrees that do not contain their ancestors. What is the point? Marleen Van Horne

Thank you for asking, David, and for giving me an opportunity to discuss the reasons for the limitations of the list. I'm going to be pretty strict about keeping the focus here on STR testing and Y-DNA surname projects, in genealogical time. It is not my intention for this list to compete with GENEALOGY-DNA where haplogroups, ethnicity, and deep ancestry are major topics of discussion. Please keep in mind that RootsWeb would not have given me this list if I hadn't defined it in such a way that it doesn't compete with existing lists. When you reach the point in your research where you're sliding off the paper trail and correlating haplogroups, geography, and ethnicity, you are really at the point where the discussion would be better taken to a haplogroup list or regional list, anyway. But here, too, the reason for restricting discussion on this list is not that there is no intellectual connection between the topics, but that I've had to narrowly define the list in order to get the list. So, to answer you directly... Yes, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I would have to consider the topics you mention in your last paragraph to be off topic for the list. Diana P.S. Your query brings up the issue of creating mailing lists, so I'll start another thread. > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] On Behalf Of David Weston > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 8:37 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] off topic > > Diana, > > Because I administer a couple of the "off-topic" projects, I > want to be sure I understand the scope > of your list fully. I should add that I am extremely > greatful for you starting a list like this. > I've lamented the absence of list were we can actually > discuss the practical applications of DNA > testing to our traditional genealogy research. > > How far we can stray into topics of deep ancestry, ethnicity > and geography (seperate from associated > projects)? These are all likely relevent discussion points > for surname origins and distribution, to > which YDNA testing can contribute to our understanding. > > For example, even though they not related within a > genealogical time frame, most of my WESTONs > (including myself) are haplogroup I1* or R1a, which have > close affinities to the Scandinavians, > presumably Dane and Norse Viking. This has provided me with > avenues of research for solidly > identifying the first WESTON surname progenitors beyond the > questionable paper trails. Since > haplogroups and geographic are key to this line of discussion > would I be getting off topic with this > line of discussion? > > Cheers, David. >

I manage five surname projects: Congleton, Emerick, Foy, Oden, Van Horne and Sir William Johnson. With the exception of Sir William Johnson, all of these surnames are extrememly rare, although they were all present in North America in the colonial period. The Congleton surname appears in states that are now New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey and North Carolina. This project is almost a year old and has no members. The Emerick surname of various spellings, including Emery, appears in Pennsylvania and New York in the colonial period. There are about fourteen families with this surname, some of whom I believe to have been related. This project has one member The Foy surname is slightly less rare than the others, and appears in New York, Pennsylvania and the Carolinas. This project has no members. The Oden surname appears in Maryland, Virginia and South Carolina. Two unrelated genetic pedigrees / family lines have been identified. This project has 8 members. The Van Horne surname project of numerous spellings was established to identify the genetic pedigrees of the three immigrants to New Netherlands, in the 1600s, whose descendants took some version of this surname. We have identified the genetic pedigree of two of these men. The project has 15 members. The Sir William Johnson project is intended to help genealogists who believe they descend from this man either prove or disprove the connection. Sir William claimed to have fathered between 600 and 700 children. The mothers of most of these children were probably Native Americans, but there is evidence some of these mothers were of European ancestry. This project has two members. The biggest difficulty is finding a documented descendant of Sir William to compare to. All of these surnames, and Sir William appear in my pedigree. Van Horne is the only surname for which I have male relatives who can be coerced into joining the project. I, too, am retired. My Scottish Terrier, Murdoch, genealogy and my garden are my primary interests. By the way Murdoch has been genetically tested for genealogical purposes. Marleen Van Horne

OK folks. Don't let me dominate the conversation here. The list now has over 50 subscribers, so I'm asking for our first roll call. Don't feel you have to join in, but you are certainly welcome to do so. A "roll call" consists of briefly introducing yourself, giving your main research interests or, in the case of this list, the projects you either administer or are a member of, and your most pressing question or most important goal. Whatever you think the list would like to know about you with regard to your participation in Y-DNA surname projects. I'll start with moi... I'm retired, and my hobby/passion/obsession is genealogy. I run six DNA projects: one regional project (Danish Demes) and five surname projects: BIDDLE, CARRICO, CORBIN, RASEY, and STRAUB, the oldest of which just turned four years old. My biggest personal success, so far, is "crossing the pond" with my STRAUB ancestry (my mother was a STRAUB). My biggest remaining goals are to "cross the pond" with my CARRICO, CORBIN, and RASEY lines, and to resolve the NPE in the BIDDLE project, which I'm actually working on for someone else. My biggest problem is lack of time. I've always needed a 30-hour day, but I never dreamt that when I retired, I'd still need one. My own DNA projects seem to be running smoothly, though new members never come in as quickly as you would want. If I won the lottery, I'd spend it on DNA testing! In addition to web pages for each of my projects, I have a large genealogy web site that is the other black hole for my time: http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/GenealogyHome.shtml Diana

Early on in my experience as a genetic genealogy project manager, I had a case of misattributed parentage, MAP. I like this term better than nonparental event, NEP, but my intent is not to spark a discussion on this topic, just to explain what and why I use MAP. Anyway, someone who should have matched one of my already identified genetic pedigrees, didn't. I went over the paper pedigree, it was pristine. It turned out this individual was the first child of a second marriage. There was another son from the first marriage, who was subsequently tested and matched the expected genetic pedigree. Human nature being what it is, one could develop all kinds of explanations concerning the parents of this man, one of which may have been true. However, as a result of checking the pedigree I discovered there was a maiden aunt who was close in age to the supposed father. This birth may very well have been an undocumented, in family adoption. I found an individual on ysearch who was a 34 / 37, same haplogroup, match with my project participant. I gave them the information and I do not know if they made contact with the individual or not. Needless to say the man who was tested, his wife and I were stunned by the test results. That is in spite of the fact that I always warn my people that they might find out something about their ancestors they did not want to know. Marleen Van Horne

Carol, Yes, they do see how their DNA test results don't match others. That is how they become aware of the NPE. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Carol Vass > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:58 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] out of wedlock births, adoptions, etc. > > Diana wrote: > Forgive me, but I don't understand. How is it that the people being > tested aren't aware of the NPE? Don't they see that their own > results don't match other lines in the family? >

Ay, yi. R1b1b2-WAMH -- can it get any worse? I would suggest to him that if he wants to stay in your project, he ought to pay for the cost of an upgrade to 67 markers for one of his near matches in your project, or at the very least offer to split the cost. And he needs to make a similar offer to the McVITTY. He's the one with the problem. I'm not hesitant to press members to test to 67 markers or to upgrade others when they are the one with the question. When you consider what they're getting in terms of "bang for the buck," DNA testing is the biggest bargain in genealogy. For $200 bucks, this guy can find out whether he's really a MAVITTY or not. He could spend thousands on his paper genealogy and still not get an answer to that one. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Sharon Bryant > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] NPEs and other related issues > > Diana, > > The man in question is predicted as R1b1b2 and is WAMH. At 25 > markers he matches nearly all of my R1bs; not a great > revelation considering the wide-spread nature of R1b. At 37 > markers he matches 35/37 with five of the men in the project. > > So far in his lineage he does not seem to have crossed paths > with any of the Clendenin/Glendinning men who have tested. > What I find more interesting is that he has a McVitty with > whom he matches 34/37. Since that is a variant of his surname > I think researching with the other man would be more > productive for him. > > In his second email he stated "...anyway, if you don't think > I belong I'll go." I told him that wasn't necessary but that > we needed to explore his lineage more. > > I have left this particular project open as men by the > Clendenin/Glendinning surname seem to be very reluctant to be > tested/spend the money. > > Sharon >

Diana, The man in question is predicted as R1b1b2 and is WAMH. At 25 markers he matches nearly all of my R1bs; not a great revelation considering the wide-spread nature of R1b. At 37 markers he matches 35/37 with five of the men in the project. So far in his lineage he does not seem to have crossed paths with any of the Clendenin/Glendinning men who have tested. What I find more interesting is that he has a McVitty with whom he matches 34/37. Since that is a variant of his surname I think researching with the other man would be more productive for him. In his second email he stated "...anyway, if you don't think I belong I'll go." I told him that wasn't necessary but that we needed to explore his lineage more. I have left this particular project open as men by the Clendenin/Glendinning surname seem to be very reluctant to be tested/spend the money. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] NPEs and other related issues >I don't have the problem of people simply appearing in my projects because I've > set the option on my GAP (Group Administrators Page) not to allow people to join > without my approval. In a case such as the one you relate, when I got his > request to join, we'd start having a discussion as to whether it would be > appropriate or not for him to do so. > > You don't say what haplogroup he was, how rare his haplotype is, or how close > his 35-marker matches are. These would figure into how likely it is that the > resemblance really means relationship. In any case, I would have him wait until > the 67 marker results come back before letting him in -- or turning him away. > > I would also ask him for his lineage, to see whether his family crossed paths at > any point with any of the families he is matching in your project. So far, in > each of the NPEs in my project, we've found a place where the families were > living in the same place at the same time. > > Diana > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Sharon Bryant >> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:35 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] NPEs and other related issues >> >> Hello again, >> >> Interestingly enough in my two largest projects, I have had >> very interesting requests to join. In fact just yesterday I >> received notice that I had a new project member whose surname >> is Mavitty. He joined the Clendenin/Glendinning project. >> >> When I questioned him about his lineage, I found that he >> knows nothing earlier than the immigrant who arrived in >> America in 1765. His reason for joining the project: the >> majority of his matches are men in my project or a couple of >> MacGregors. His membership came complete with 37 marker >> testing accomplished and an upgrade to 67 markers in the works. >> >> Has this type of thing to any of you? How did you handle it? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Sharon > > > > ------------------------------- > The topic of this list is Y-DNA *surname* projects. Discussion of geographic, haplogroup, or mtDNA projects is off topic for this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I don't have the problem of people simply appearing in my projects because I've set the option on my GAP (Group Administrators Page) not to allow people to join without my approval. In a case such as the one you relate, when I got his request to join, we'd start having a discussion as to whether it would be appropriate or not for him to do so. You don't say what haplogroup he was, how rare his haplotype is, or how close his 35-marker matches are. These would figure into how likely it is that the resemblance really means relationship. In any case, I would have him wait until the 67 marker results come back before letting him in -- or turning him away. I would also ask him for his lineage, to see whether his family crossed paths at any point with any of the families he is matching in your project. So far, in each of the NPEs in my project, we've found a place where the families were living in the same place at the same time. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Sharon Bryant > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] NPEs and other related issues > > Hello again, > > Interestingly enough in my two largest projects, I have had > very interesting requests to join. In fact just yesterday I > received notice that I had a new project member whose surname > is Mavitty. He joined the Clendenin/Glendinning project. > > When I questioned him about his lineage, I found that he > knows nothing earlier than the immigrant who arrived in > America in 1765. His reason for joining the project: the > majority of his matches are men in my project or a couple of > MacGregors. His membership came complete with 37 marker > testing accomplished and an upgrade to 67 markers in the works. > > Has this type of thing to any of you? How did you handle it? > > Thanks, > > Sharon

Ah, now I understand. This touches on the issue of making project results public, something I have a very strong opinion about. I feel the same way about people who won't share DNA data as I do about people who won't share their genealogical research (and, for obvious reasons, they're often the same persons). I'm a retired scientist, and I've never seen a field of research where there is more "reinventing of the wheel" as there is in genealogy. The purpose of sharing your research is so that the next person can take up where you left off and move us all that much further. If everyone has to start at square one, none of us will advance beyond what one person can do in a lifetime. If we share, the "rising tide lifts all boats." The admonition for a researcher to "publish or perish" is serious. It means, if you aren't publishing, you must not be accomplishing anything, and if you're not accomplishing anything, you're not doing your job as a researcher. Or put another way, the last step in any research project is to publish the results. If you haven't shared your work by publishing, you haven't finished. And how many genealogists have held on to their work, literally with a death grip, and had it thrown away by their heirs? What a colossal waste. I wish genealogy could be infused with the ethic to publish (to share), the same way academic research is infused with that ethic. However, I realize it's not my place to preach philosophy here. What is my place is to complain about the harm being done to genealogists and genealogy by DNA projects being secretive. We have just one patrilineal and one matrilineal line. These are only two of many ancestral lines each of us have. To gain an appreciation of how many, I periodically remind myself by viewing this table: http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/Ancillary/OnE/NumberAncestors.shtml I want to prove all the lines in my pedigree, not just my patrilineal line, and I presume at least most of us share that goal. To accomplish this goal, we're going to need others to share their results with us, just as we are sharing our results with them. I frankly cannot fathom why anyone wants to keep their results secret, although the motive of one project is clear... I had one family association running a project that made me join the association ($20) to get a copy of the results from them. All I got was a table of 25-marker results and the name of the earliest ancestor. My line is R1b, so 25 markers is simply not enough. But there's no contact information for me to find out if the person has tested more markers or to urge them to do so if they haven't. If I want to continue to be sent results, I will have to continue with an annual $20 subscription. I simply can't afford to belong to all the family associations for all the surnames in my pedigree, and there aren't words to express how much I resent paying for information when I'm giving it away for free. If we all charged for information, none of us could afford to get anywhere! There's another project for one of the surnames in my pedigree where all I could get out of the project admin was the progenitor's haplogroup. I've still have no idea whom we match, whether my line has been tested, or whether we've "crossed the pond." Please forgive the rant, but I do *not* understand this mindset. I commend you for at least trying to help those you can on an individual basis. You are making me so glad there is no family association for my surname. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] On Behalf Of Raymond Wing > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 5:52 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] out of wedlock births, adoptions, etc. > > Diana (and others) > > When I stated my concerns regarding descendants not being > able to discover their genetic lineage (due to the policy NOT > to publish the results), I was speaking about the vast > majority of descendants who are not direct male-line > descendants of this line.  > > As such, their Y-DNA is not Wing (or at least, not the line > which had a NPE) and therefor wouldn't discover they don't > match the family. > > In addition, only a fraction of men (even men who are > interested in researching their genealogy) ever submit to a DNA test. > > Like Diana stated, any direct male descendant from this line > (who has had their Y-DNA tested) should be able to discover > that an NPE event occurred in their line. I am able to speak > to them INDIVIDUALLY and explain the circumstances. I am just > not able to publicize so that all of the descendants can > obtain this knowledge. > > > Raymond T. Wing > Genealogist, Wing Family of America, Inc. [WFA] > www.wingfamily.org >

Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > OK folks. Don't let me dominate the conversation here. The list now has over > 50 subscribers, so I'm asking for our first roll call. Don't feel you have to > join in, but you are certainly welcome to do so. > > Thanks, Diana, for taking the initiative and starting this list. I'm Brent Bradberry, and I administer the BRADBERRY/BRADBURY surname project, still new and small. Our first five members show three haplogroups - talk about multiple origins! I'm retired (25 years U S Navy and then 20 more teaching mathematics) and live outside of Moscow, Idaho. My great ambition is to cross the pond with our surname. So far, all our "Yank" members hit brick walls, mostly in colonial Virginia. We have one Aussie and one Brit, but they don't match any of our Yanks. BTW I am I1, YHSK7 at YSearch.

Hello again, Interestingly enough in my two largest projects, I have had very interesting requests to join. In fact just yesterday I received notice that I had a new project member whose surname is Mavitty. He joined the Clendenin/Glendinning project. When I questioned him about his lineage, I found that he knows nothing earlier than the immigrant who arrived in America in 1765. His reason for joining the project: the majority of his matches are men in my project or a couple of MacGregors. His membership came complete with 37 marker testing accomplished and an upgrade to 67 markers in the works. Has this type of thing to any of you? How did you handle it? Thanks, Sharon

Hello everyone, I administer four projects: Clendenin/Glendinning, Molyneaux, Eikemeier, and Knauer. In none of these have I or my brothers been able to be tested as they are all maternal lines. I don't mind this. As I told the members when I began administration of the projects "I don't have a dog in this fight." The administration is just my way of helping others gain information about their families. Like Bob McLaren I would like to bring the numbers up in the membership of the Eikemeier and Knauer projects. Still working on ways to do that. Sharon Bryant

Diana wrote: Forgive me, but I don't understand. How is it that the people being tested aren't aware of the NPE? Don't they see that their own results don't match other lines in the family? Carol Vass writes: On surname projects which clearly have multiple origins of the surname, NPEs would not be so obvious. The BERRY, ALEXANDER and DILLON projects that I am involved with are all open to any men with those surnames. BERRY and ALEXANDER each have 110+ participants and each have -- roughly -- 40+ distinct and separate lineages. [DILLON has 15 participants, with 11 separate lineages.] On the BERRY project, I know that we have three proven NPEs. I would say about four more people don't match their 'expected' BERRY family, but it is more likely that the participant (or sponsor) has a flaw in their paper trail rather than an NPE. It could well be that there are some men who don't match anyone on the project because they are NPEs, but we have no way of knowing. This discussion is providing an interesting perspective between projects with multiple origins of the surname compared to those dedicated to one specific origin of the surname. I find myself having to explain the random adoption of surnames repeatedly. It's a difficult concept to accept for many participants. It was difficult for me to grasp initially!! When the BERRY project started in 2003, we thought all the BERRYs with paper trails to colonial America would surely be closely related which has turned out to be distinctly NOT the case. It is one of the most powerful lessons I take away from Y- DNA testing -- same surname/same geographical place in the same time frame does NOT -- necessarily -- mean a close genetic relationship. Carol Vass Kent, WA

I think it would be up to each administrator how to handle the situation you are facing.  To me, I would look at how unique the DNA "signature" of my family is (and how closely this individual's markers match the Wing modal value). The Wing family has a couple of fairly rare values in certain STR markers (DYS458=19 and DYS464=15,16,18,18 plus some others that are uncommon).  However, I also know (through searching various DNA databases) there is at least one other family whose Modal value is very close to the Modal value of the Wing family (the Howland family). I am not sure how I would handle the situation, but I would inform the person of my finding another family whose results closely match his as well. Raymond T. Wing Genealogist, Wing Family of America, Inc. [WFA] www.wingfamily.org --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Sharon Bryant <[email protected]> wrote: From: Sharon Bryant <[email protected]> Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] NPEs and other related issues To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 6:34 AM Hello again, Interestingly enough in my two largest projects, I have had very interesting requests to join. In fact just yesterday I received notice that I had a new project member whose surname is Mavitty. He joined the Clendenin/Glendinning project. When I questioned him about his lineage, I found that he knows nothing earlier than the immigrant who arrived in America in 1765. His reason for joining the project: the majority of his matches are men in my project or a couple of MacGregors. His membership came complete with 37 marker testing accomplished and an upgrade to 67 markers in the works. Has this type of thing to any of you? How did you handle it? Thanks, Sharon The topic of this list is Y-DNA *surname* projects. Discussion of geographic, haplogroup, or mtDNA projects is off topic for this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diana (and others) When I stated my concerns regarding descendants not being able to discover their genetic lineage (due to the policy NOT to publish the results), I was speaking about the vast majority of descendants who are not direct male-line descendants of this line.  As such, their Y-DNA is not Wing (or at least, not the line which had a NPE) and therefor wouldn't discover they don't match the family. In addition, only a fraction of men (even men who are interested in researching their genealogy) ever submit to a DNA test. Like Diana stated, any direct male descendant from this line (who has had their Y-DNA tested) should be able to discover that an NPE event occurred in their line. I am able to speak to them INDIVIDUALLY and explain the circumstances. I am just not able to publicize so that all of the descendants can obtain this knowledge. Raymond T. Wing Genealogist, Wing Family of America, Inc. [WFA] www.wingfamily.org --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Diana Gale Matthiesen <[email protected]> wrote: From: Diana Gale Matthiesen <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] out of wedlock births, adoptions, etc. To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 2:21 AM Forgive me, but I don't understand. How is it that the people being tested aren't aware of the NPE? Don't they see that their own results don't match other lines in the family? Diana