I think Sam's issue with me was for my calling for deep SNP testing for "R1b." The "congested' group is really R1b1b2: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml Clades further up the tree are rare, rather than congested. He agreed that anyone P297+ needs to be deep SNP tested. In fact, I *meant* R1b1b2, but I've gotten in a nasty habit of just casually using R1b as synonymous with R1b1b2, which I should *stop* doing because it's erroneous. As soon as someone discovers they are R1b1b2, I say order the upgrade to 67 markers *and* order deep SNP testing. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Mike W > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 7:57 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > > I willl dig up some facts but R1b1b2 is truly congested. Deep clade R > testing is a must unless a brother or male cousin has already done so. > With the FTDNA's prediction system, if you are predicted R1b1 or > R1b1b2 you should deep clade test. Of course STR testing is even more > important. Sorry but R1b1b2 should go to 67 markers. Do this before > deep clade testing IMHO. Mike W >

Rick, That was my original approach as well. I tested 12 at. Nat"l Geno then upgraded to 25. I had no close matches. I got frustrated and did nothing for awhile. I upgraded to 37 during a sale. I noticed that some my closest people at 25 (albeit not very close) dropped off and a new person appeared. I thought there was no reason to go further but people asked me what my DYS492 was. Finally I bit the bullet for 67. All prior surnames dropped off but the one new guy at 37. Two others with his surname also showed up as well as another surname. A pattern became clear as far as a specific region in Wales AND it matched my family folklore. I discovered the STR signature of my cluster. It turns out the markers from 38 to 67 are critical to many R1b1b2 clusters. All STR's are not equal. On 6/12/10, Fredric Z. Saunders <fzsaund@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > As with everything, there are exceptions. I know what you are saying, as I > have a number of R1b1b2 in one of my projects that are not related to each > other that it takes a minimum 37 markers to tell to which lineage they > belong. > > On the other hand, there are people like me that are projected as R1b1b2 and > have ZERO matches with ANY surname. I have tested to 37 markers, and don't > match anyone of ANY surname at 12 markers, much less 37. Testing to 67 or > doing a deep clade test isn't going to do anything for me. > > Rick Saunders > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike W > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 5:57 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > > I will dig up some facts but R1b1b2 is truly congested. Deep clade R > testing is a must unless a brother or male cousin has already done so. > With the FTDNA's prediction system, if you are predicted R1b1 or > R1b1b2 you should deep clade test. Of course STR testing is even more > important. Sorry but R1b1b2 should go to 67 markers. Do this before > deep clade testing IMHO. Mike W > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Sent from my mobile device

Haplogroup R1b (rather, R1b1b2) is a special case because it is so common. But even there, after one member of a family has tested, I usually don't recommend more members of the same family do so. In other haplogroups there may be less reason to test. However... I just had a person test who turns out to have a new mtDNA SNP mutation somewhere between himself and his grandmother! You just don't know until you test... Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 7:23 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > > I've been reading this and other threads on SNP testing with > interest. We > have over 30 in our close-knit I2b1-Continental 2a group of > Johnstons in > Poldean and over 70 in our "greater" group of Cousins. I > called FTDNA and > asked if they could recommend any additional tests to assist > us in grouping > our Y-DNA Cousins. I was told that we should save our money > as they don't > have anything that definative for us, yet. > > I'll concede that the I haplogroup is not as "congested" as the R > haplogroup, but I do wonder about the value of all of the > deep SNP testing > that I read about people doing... > > Cliff. Johnston

>From my experience with our group, I now tell everyone who asks me about being tested that anything less than 67 markers is simply avoiding the inevitable. Chances are they'll want to upgrade sooner rather than later as anything less won't tell them what they really need to know.. Cliff. "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: <fenenga@connpoint.net> To: <y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] testing to 67 markers > > the number of people who only tested to 12 or 25 is incredible. they > are under the assumption that that is all that is needed. > > at 12 markers a single man matches perfectly with my husband (who is > a Moore). the match's surname is not only different from my husband, > it's mainland European, Baltic, I believe. he does not match beyond > 12 markers. but he is a perfect match at 12 markers. no-one else > tested so far is. does that mean a perfect match at 12 markers is > indeed a perfect match? absolutely not. and 12 markers is a totally > uninformative test even for someone with a rare surname. > > at 12 markers with a distance of 1 are 22 individuals. some are > Moores, some are of other Scottish surnames. none are close cousins, > even at 11/12. > > at 25 markers with 2 distant, there are 4 men, 3 of whom are Moores, > but not closely related even at 23/25. > > at 37 markers with 0 distance, there is one man, but even though he > is 37/37, he is not a close cousin. > > at 37 markers with 4 distance, there are 10 matches. they are not > close cousins. > > at 67 markers with 7 distance (yes, that far) there is one man. he > is not a close cousin. > > all of these people aren't just distant cousins, they are very > distant cousins. why am I pointing this out? because on DYS 572, my > husband has a unique mutation. but you won't find out if you have > signature mutations if you don't test to 67 markers. there are people > with very common surnames that insist that it isn't necissary to test > beyond 25. every person who fails to test beyond 25 who has a fairly > common surname is not going to get all the information available or > match correctly-some people now in one group could actually belong to > a different group because 25 just doesn't give enough information. > > Cornelia > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I willl dig up some facts but R1b1b2 is truly congested. Deep clade R testing is a must unless a brother or male cousin has already done so. With the FTDNA's prediction system, if you are predicted R1b1 or R1b1b2 you should deep clade test. Of course STR testing is even more important. Sorry but R1b1b2 should go to 67 markers. Do this before deep clade testing IMHO. Mike W On 6/12/10, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> wrote: > Haplogroup R1b (rather, R1b1b2) is a special case because it is so common. > But > even there, after one member of a family has tested, I usually don't > recommend > more members of the same family do so. In other haplogroups there may be > less > reason to test. However... > > I just had a person test who turns out to have a new mtDNA SNP mutation > somewhere between himself and his grandmother! You just don't know until > you > test... > > Diana > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston >> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 7:23 PM >> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call >> >> I've been reading this and other threads on SNP testing with >> interest. We >> have over 30 in our close-knit I2b1-Continental 2a group of >> Johnstons in >> Poldean and over 70 in our "greater" group of Cousins. I >> called FTDNA and >> asked if they could recommend any additional tests to assist >> us in grouping >> our Y-DNA Cousins. I was told that we should save our money >> as they don't >> have anything that definative for us, yet. >> >> I'll concede that the I haplogroup is not as "congested" as the R >> haplogroup, but I do wonder about the value of all of the >> deep SNP testing >> that I read about people doing... >> >> Cliff. Johnston > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Sent from my mobile device

In some places, I've seen these called "Orphan's Court" records. When you see how extensive they are, you realize genealogists should consult them routinely. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Glenn Stroup > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 4:01 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > <snip> > Often the books about such records are called something > like the "Lost Children." <snip> > Thanks, > > Glenn > >

Hi Sam, OK, I stand corrected, R1b1b2, not R1b. However, speaking personally, I would always want to be deep SNP tested. If everyone *deduces* their haplogroup from their haplotype, we are going to miss exceptions. It's akin to the question of which markers are "best." You don't know which markers are going to help you, until after you've tested them. You don't know, for certain, you didn't need the SNP test, until after you've taken it. Ditto a Kittler test. Most will be modal for their haplogroup, but you do get an occasional exception. I'm probably OC in this respect because I'm a (retired) scientist. If you wanted to publish a paper on these data, you couldn't use "assumed" values. You'd *have* to test. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of SVass > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 3:43 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > > > On Jun 12, 2010, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > > > I can answer part of your question, now, ... > > > > Anyone who is R1b should deep SNP test as far as they can > go, in part to eliminate matches by coincidence. There is at > least one case where two R1b > > individuals matched 60/67, but turned out, upon deep SNP > testing, to be in different R1b subclades. This problem of > coincidental haplotype matches in R1b > > is going to get worse as more people are tested. > > Let me first disagree with the above. Any one who is P297+ > (or as FTDNA calls it R1b1b2) should be SNP tested. Any of > my own R1b1-V88* precursor subclade does not need to do so if > they can find a close match at even 25 markers. At 67 > markers, we are at a genetic distance of 40 to 60 from the > P297+ group using the infinite allele model. > > For purposes of the roll call, I track several subclusters of > groups trying to estimate the date of origin for each group. > One is the one that VV calls R1b1a (V88+ M335-) Clusters B1, > B2, and B3 at his FTDNA website: > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx > > The main other group(s) is the U152+, L4+ subgroup of R1b1b2. > I also have estimated the interclade age for the R1b1 Cohane group. > > I maintain private databases for each as these data are mined > from SMGF, FTDNA, Ancestry, and scientific papers. Note that > these contain primarily individuals with known Jewish or > probable converso ancestry. The coalescence and/or > interclade ages for each of these groups exceeds two thousand years. > I also maintain the JewishGen HSIG FTDNA site at FTDNA. > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_SIG/default.aspx > > Sam Vass > C27F2 at ysearch and mitosearch > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message >

I have a minority view: that testing beyond 37, or even 25, markers is usually not helpful. I am the administrator of the Willis project at FTDNA. We have about 115 members. About 70% of us match someone else in the project. We have about a dozen groups of Willises (the name is derived from the name William and originated in many different locations in Great Britain). By far the biggest benefit of Y-DNA testing for members of the Willis project is that they find out which group of Willises they belong to. There is no instance where testing beyond 25 markers would have been needed to figure out which group to assign the member to. Interestingly, out of the dozen groups in the Willis project, only a couple of them know who their common ancestor is. Solving this problem by analyzing mismatched markers has not helped much, at least for me. When, and in whose line, did the mismatch occur? Dave Willis

As with everything, there are exceptions. I know what you are saying, as I have a number of R1b1b2 in one of my projects that are not related to each other that it takes a minimum 37 markers to tell to which lineage they belong. On the other hand, there are people like me that are projected as R1b1b2 and have ZERO matches with ANY surname. I have tested to 37 markers, and don't match anyone of ANY surname at 12 markers, much less 37. Testing to 67 or doing a deep clade test isn't going to do anything for me. Rick Saunders -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike W Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 5:57 PM To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call I will dig up some facts but R1b1b2 is truly congested. Deep clade R testing is a must unless a brother or male cousin has already done so. With the FTDNA's prediction system, if you are predicted R1b1 or R1b1b2 you should deep clade test. Of course STR testing is even more important. Sorry but R1b1b2 should go to 67 markers. Do this before deep clade testing IMHO. Mike W

I've been reading this and other threads on SNP testing with interest. We have over 30 in our close-knit I2b1-Continental 2a group of Johnstons in Poldean and over 70 in our "greater" group of Cousins. I called FTDNA and asked if they could recommend any additional tests to assist us in grouping our Y-DNA Cousins. I was told that we should save our money as they don't have anything that definative for us, yet. I'll concede that the I haplogroup is not as "congested" as the R haplogroup, but I do wonder about the value of all of the deep SNP testing that I read about people doing... Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> To: <y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > Hi Sam, > > OK, I stand corrected, R1b1b2, not R1b. However, speaking personally, I > would > always want to be deep SNP tested. If everyone *deduces* their haplogroup > from > their haplotype, we are going to miss exceptions. > > It's akin to the question of which markers are "best." You don't know > which > markers are going to help you, until after you've tested them. You don't > know, > for certain, you didn't need the SNP test, until after you've taken it. > Ditto a > Kittler test. Most will be modal for their haplogroup, but you do get an > occasional exception. > > I'm probably OC in this respect because I'm a (retired) scientist. If you > wanted to publish a paper on these data, you couldn't use "assumed" > values. > You'd *have* to test. > > Diana > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of SVass >> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 3:43 PM >> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call >> >> >> On Jun 12, 2010, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: >> >> > I can answer part of your question, now, ... >> > >> > Anyone who is R1b should deep SNP test as far as they can >> go, in part to eliminate matches by coincidence. There is at >> least one case where two R1b >> > individuals matched 60/67, but turned out, upon deep SNP >> testing, to be in different R1b subclades. This problem of >> coincidental haplotype matches in R1b >> > is going to get worse as more people are tested. >> >> Let me first disagree with the above. Any one who is P297+ >> (or as FTDNA calls it R1b1b2) should be SNP tested. Any of >> my own R1b1-V88* precursor subclade does not need to do so if >> they can find a close match at even 25 markers. At 67 >> markers, we are at a genetic distance of 40 to 60 from the >> P297+ group using the infinite allele model. >> >> For purposes of the roll call, I track several subclusters of >> groups trying to estimate the date of origin for each group. >> One is the one that VV calls R1b1a (V88+ M335-) Clusters B1, >> B2, and B3 at his FTDNA website: >> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx >> >> The main other group(s) is the U152+, L4+ subgroup of R1b1b2. >> I also have estimated the interclade age for the R1b1 Cohane group. >> >> I maintain private databases for each as these data are mined >> from SMGF, FTDNA, Ancestry, and scientific papers. Note that >> these contain primarily individuals with known Jewish or >> probable converso ancestry. The coalescence and/or >> interclade ages for each of these groups exceeds two thousand years. >> I also maintain the JewishGen HSIG FTDNA site at FTDNA. >> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_SIG/default.aspx >> >> Sam Vass >> C27F2 at ysearch and mitosearch >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body >> of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

the number of people who only tested to 12 or 25 is incredible. they are under the assumption that that is all that is needed. at 12 markers a single man matches perfectly with my husband (who is a Moore). the match's surname is not only different from my husband, it's mainland European, Baltic, I believe. he does not match beyond 12 markers. but he is a perfect match at 12 markers. no-one else tested so far is. does that mean a perfect match at 12 markers is indeed a perfect match? absolutely not. and 12 markers is a totally uninformative test even for someone with a rare surname. at 12 markers with a distance of 1 are 22 individuals. some are Moores, some are of other Scottish surnames. none are close cousins, even at 11/12. at 25 markers with 2 distant, there are 4 men, 3 of whom are Moores, but not closely related even at 23/25. at 37 markers with 0 distance, there is one man, but even though he is 37/37, he is not a close cousin. at 37 markers with 4 distance, there are 10 matches. they are not close cousins. at 67 markers with 7 distance (yes, that far) there is one man. he is not a close cousin. all of these people aren't just distant cousins, they are very distant cousins. why am I pointing this out? because on DYS 572, my husband has a unique mutation. but you won't find out if you have signature mutations if you don't test to 67 markers. there are people with very common surnames that insist that it isn't necissary to test beyond 25. every person who fails to test beyond 25 who has a fairly common surname is not going to get all the information available or match correctly-some people now in one group could actually belong to a different group because 25 just doesn't give enough information. Cornelia

At 03:18 PM 6/12/2010, Fred wrote: >"The few cryptic phrases that have come down in the family is >that he was "found out and ran away", or "one or both of the parents >died and men came and took the children away", also there is the story >that he resented his family because he was bound to a master at an >early age. The man was to teach him a trade, how to read and write, >etc. , but the master did none of these things. He took the boy out of >state and treated him like a slave." Fred and others - I have been digging into colonial and after legal practices in Virginia, Tennessee and North Carolina because I too am searching for definitive information about my Stroup ancestor (by paper German, but my DNA says Irish) of 1794 as well as for the parents of my GGrandfather Adams, born 1835 of unkiwn parents. In both cases I suspect an NPE and/or an adoption/Apprenticeship. I've found that most states kept court records and often had a Committee who administered the programs for the poor and/or orphans. Often the books about such records are called something like the "Lost Children." I have one called just that for Wythe County VA, and although I did not find an entry for my Stroup ancestor, I did for some of his relatives. I thought I had found an adoption/apprenticeship (sometimes combined) for the right time of My GGrandfather Adams, but found a later case which said the Adams man had only girls!~. But I suggest you look for such records - you family stories sound just like many that I;ve read about people who were just looking for cheap labor and did not do the training or provide the support they were supposed to for the orphans. Thanks, Glenn

Hello, Diana, Thanks very much for the info. I've ordered the 67 markers. 1-60 are in, am waiting for 61-67. One reason I believe mine may be an NPE is the seemingly intentional decision on my ancestor's part to not reveal any of his family history. The few cryptic phrases that have come down in the family is that he was "found out and ran away", or "one or both of the parents died and men came and took the children away", also there is the story that he resented his family because he was bound to a master at an early age. The man was to teach him a trade, how to read and write, etc. , but the master did none of these things. He took the boy out of state and treated him like a slave. My gr.-gr.-grandfather's birth place and date came from him.alone There is no telling whether he told the truth. He gave his birth place as Rhode Island, which is the ancestral home of the Westcotts. I can document him only from his service in the War of 1812 in Western New York State. He was seemingly alone. If he did indeed run away and change his name and fabricate a date and place of birth there is no way to trace his origins other than DNA. Fred On 6/12/10, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> wrote: > Hello Fred, > > I can answer part of your question, now, but I've got an appointment to > keep, so > must run. > > Anyone who is R1b should deep SNP test as far as they can go, in part to > eliminate matches by coincidence. There is at least one case where two R1b > individuals matched 60/67, but turned out, upon deep SNP testing, to be in > different R1b subclades. This problem of coincidental haplotype matches in > R1b > is going to get worse as more people are tested. However, this problem is > being > offset by the discovery of more SNPs. > > Eventually, we *will* be able to reach into genealogical time with SNP > testing, > and one reason to test each new SNP as it becomes available is to spur the > commercial labs into looking for more. DNA testing for genealogy is very > much a > market-driven business. The labs can't afford to search for SNPs if there's > no > market for them. > > Also for avoidance of coincidental matches, all R1b' need to test 67 (or > more) > markers. Fred, you have a double reason in that you may have an NPE in your > line, so you are going to need especially strong evidence to attach yourself > to > another surname. > > Lastly, it is much too early in the game to assume you have an NPE. If I > have > learned anything in the past six years, it's that most surnames have many > more > origins than people suspect. You may simply belong to a WESTCOTT family > that > hasn't been tested yet, except by you. > > Diana > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of fred westcott >> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 9:48 AM >> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call >> >> Hello All, >> I just became a member of this list, reading about it on the *other >> list*. I am trying to educate myself about all things DNA. My >> y-genealogy goes back to a gr-gr-grandfather. Even lacking a paper >> trail we were certain of our y-descent from a well-documented English >> immigrant in the 1630's since all bearing our surname come from this >> one family. However I find that my y-dna does not match any others of >> this name , Westcott. The closest I come is 10/12 and 18/25 >> (LIttleton/Westcott project). >> I just was tested at FT. At 37 markers there are two of different >> surnames that I match 33/37 , no Westcotts, of which there are at >> least 7 others at FT. So any Westcott will be 32/37 or less. This does >> not bode well. >> I do match an Adams at SMGF 42/43. It appears this is our ancestral >> name. I've tried to communicate with this person with no luck, however >> from the pedigree at SMGF I do find his lineage that goes back to at >> least 1841 Somerset, England. I verified this with censuses and other >> data. I realize the link to any ancestral Adams might be very far back >> in time. I've joined the Adams surname project and the admin, John >> Walden, has been a terrific help. >> >> So far I am predicted R1b1b2 at both FT and SMGF/Genetree. I will >> order an R Deep Clade test at FT . How close to genealogical time will >> the closest Rib1b2 clade bring you ? Is the test guaranteed to get you >> to another level or might you stay at R1b1b2*? >> >> How geographic specific is cluster analysis ? >> >> What are the chances of the autosomal test being any help finding >> (presumed)Adams cousins ? >> >> It is interesting that the Westcotts and Adams come from the >> relatively same area of England - Devon/Somerset. The chance always >> exists that we are Westcotts on a maternal line. >> >> Thanks for any help or hints ! >> Fred >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body >> of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I tried to google surname lottery but all I seem to find a scams and comments refering to surnames. well, I did find this. I was thinking my ancestors took their surname around 1752, but I think it was the next generation... http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090808145516AAJTyLZ [1] In the Netherlands it wasn't until the reign of Napoleon before people had one. The Dutch thought it would be something temporary and as a result many in a spirit of humor gave themselves silly and sometimes downright obnoxious names. The joke turned out to be on them when they realized they would be permanent and had a hard time getting those names changed. Here is a sampling from Wikipedia, read and smile [edit] History of Dutch surnames Surnames were not required until 1811 when emperor Napoleon had annexed the Netherlands.[2] Since many Dutch people thought this convention would only be temporary, some deliberately chose confusing or comical names. For example: Dutch surname Explanation English De Keizer probably a wordplay on Napoleon when people came to register their name; Who are you? I'm the emperor.[citation needed] Lit. "emperor". Rotmensen rot, adjective meaning "rotten" + mensen "people"[citation needed] Lit. "rotten people". Poepjes poep, noun meaning "poo/feces", + jes plural diminutive[citation needed] Lit. "excrement; poopies". Piest piest, third-person singular form of the verb piesen meaning "to urinate/to piss"[citation needed] (He/She/It) "pisses/urinates" Naaktgeboren naakt, adjective meaning "naked", + geboren meaning "born"[citation needed] Lit. "born naked" Zeldenthuis zelden, adverb meaning "seldom", + thuis meaning "at home"[citation needed] Lit. "seldom at home" Links: ------ [1] http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090808145516AAJTyLZ

I'm Sandy Coulter, and I administer an FTDNA project for the surnames Cronk, Crank, Crunk, Krank, Kronk, and Kronck. Members of my Cronk/Krank Family MyFamily.com website wanted to confirm our paper documentation that they tied back to the Kronk, Kronck families of Wertheim, Germany. And we were able to include descendants still in the Wertheim, Germany area in our study. With the exception of two of our members, we were successful. The two others may tie back to the Cronk families of The Netherlands. I have been learning as we go along, which is one reason for my joining this discussion group. I am not very knowledgeable in biology so much of the technical discussion is a bit foreign, but I like to think that I'm learning a little more with the newsletter. I have been researching my husband's Coulter family since 1975, which connects to Cronk/Kronk, Pugh, Short, McGriff, and Doty families. Although my sister has researched most of my own family, I have done a lot of our Way family in England and am looking for my Kennedy connections in Ireland and possibly Scotland. Sandy Coulter

On Jun 12, 2010, Diana Gale Matthiesen wrote: > I can answer part of your question, now, ... > > Anyone who is R1b should deep SNP test as far as they can go, in part to eliminate matches by coincidence. There is at least one case where two R1b > individuals matched 60/67, but turned out, upon deep SNP testing, to be in different R1b subclades. This problem of coincidental haplotype matches in R1b > is going to get worse as more people are tested. Let me first disagree with the above. Any one who is P297+ (or as FTDNA calls it R1b1b2) should be SNP tested. Any of my own R1b1-V88* precursor subclade does not need to do so if they can find a close match at even 25 markers. At 67 markers, we are at a genetic distance of 40 to 60 from the P297+ group using the infinite allele model. For purposes of the roll call, I track several subclusters of groups trying to estimate the date of origin for each group. One is the one that VV calls R1b1a (V88+ M335-) Clusters B1, B2, and B3 at his FTDNA website: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1Asterisk/default.aspx The main other group(s) is the U152+, L4+ subgroup of R1b1b2. I also have estimated the interclade age for the R1b1 Cohane group. I maintain private databases for each as these data are mined from SMGF, FTDNA, Ancestry, and scientific papers. Note that these contain primarily individuals with known Jewish or probable converso ancestry. The coalescence and/or interclade ages for each of these groups exceeds two thousand years. I also maintain the JewishGen HSIG FTDNA site at FTDNA. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_SIG/default.aspx Sam Vass C27F2 at ysearch and mitosearch

Hello Fred, I can answer part of your question, now, but I've got an appointment to keep, so must run. Anyone who is R1b should deep SNP test as far as they can go, in part to eliminate matches by coincidence. There is at least one case where two R1b individuals matched 60/67, but turned out, upon deep SNP testing, to be in different R1b subclades. This problem of coincidental haplotype matches in R1b is going to get worse as more people are tested. However, this problem is being offset by the discovery of more SNPs. Eventually, we *will* be able to reach into genealogical time with SNP testing, and one reason to test each new SNP as it becomes available is to spur the commercial labs into looking for more. DNA testing for genealogy is very much a market-driven business. The labs can't afford to search for SNPs if there's no market for them. Also for avoidance of coincidental matches, all R1b' need to test 67 (or more) markers. Fred, you have a double reason in that you may have an NPE in your line, so you are going to need especially strong evidence to attach yourself to another surname. Lastly, it is much too early in the game to assume you have an NPE. If I have learned anything in the past six years, it's that most surnames have many more origins than people suspect. You may simply belong to a WESTCOTT family that hasn't been tested yet, except by you. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of fred westcott > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 9:48 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Roll Call > > Hello All, > I just became a member of this list, reading about it on the *other > list*. I am trying to educate myself about all things DNA. My > y-genealogy goes back to a gr-gr-grandfather. Even lacking a paper > trail we were certain of our y-descent from a well-documented English > immigrant in the 1630's since all bearing our surname come from this > one family. However I find that my y-dna does not match any others of > this name , Westcott. The closest I come is 10/12 and 18/25 > (LIttleton/Westcott project). > I just was tested at FT. At 37 markers there are two of different > surnames that I match 33/37 , no Westcotts, of which there are at > least 7 others at FT. So any Westcott will be 32/37 or less. This does > not bode well. > I do match an Adams at SMGF 42/43. It appears this is our ancestral > name. I've tried to communicate with this person with no luck, however > from the pedigree at SMGF I do find his lineage that goes back to at > least 1841 Somerset, England. I verified this with censuses and other > data. I realize the link to any ancestral Adams might be very far back > in time. I've joined the Adams surname project and the admin, John > Walden, has been a terrific help. > > So far I am predicted R1b1b2 at both FT and SMGF/Genetree. I will > order an R Deep Clade test at FT . How close to genealogical time will > the closest Rib1b2 clade bring you ? Is the test guaranteed to get you > to another level or might you stay at R1b1b2*? > > How geographic specific is cluster analysis ? > > What are the chances of the autosomal test being any help finding > (presumed)Adams cousins ? > > It is interesting that the Westcotts and Adams come from the > relatively same area of England - Devon/Somerset. The chance always > exists that we are Westcotts on a maternal line. > > Thanks for any help or hints ! > Fred > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message >

As a retired foreign service officer, IT executive and information-management consultant who's been researching family history for over three decades and displaying it for nine years on a well-frequented website, I now find myself devoting most of my free time to genetic genealogy - administering a surname project that's attempting to determine the extent to which Acrees relate to one another. I initiated the project nearly four years ago upon discovering that I had an impressive Y-DNA match with a known sixth-cousin. Our project at Ancestry.com, which currently has 29 tested participants - most of us purposefully no closer than distant cousins, has stayed lucky - succeeding in ways that I'd never imagined. Back in the 1950s, I'd shamelessly kidded my father when he was trying to connect "all the Acrees" by scouring phone books and calling/writing to as many of them as he could - hoping to prove that many of us have a common colonial-era ancestor. It seemed an impossible quest at the time, which he finally had to abandon in his old age. But what is our project now finding - in my old age, with the benefits of DNA testing and the internet, which has allowed me to locate and communicate with scores of Acrees? Well, we're convinced that most of us indeed descend from the same ancestor who immigrated to Virginia in the early 18th century. Our deduction is based not only on the fact that 22/29 of us with documented or circumstantially-deduced lineages match each other closely (all of us additionally sharing a rare, distinguishing partial-repeat at one marker), but it's based also on an elaborate Acree data base that has accumulated in connection with the project. It's highly satisfying that, with the benefit of that file and convenient access to people-finding websites, including the census, it's fairly easy to determine the lineage of most any Acree who requests our help, which I freely offer to anyone who asks, whether or not they decide to test. We've also established a supportive Acree-family discussion group at Facebook, with nearly 400 members whom my grandson enthusiastically networked. We're proud of our achievements. Among the 22 of us who match the majority haplotype, we have a participant with another surname whose ancestors adopted an Acree boy two hundred years ago, an African-American who has found his elusive Acree lineage, and a Civil War orphan who was raised by his sister's family. The remaining 7 of us include two matching participants who descend from an unrelated colonial progenitor (our project's minority haplotype), two Civil War orphans who sired Acree descendants but were fathered themselves by non-Acrees (identified with the help of DNA comparisons), an Acree who took his mother's surname, a disappointingly-unrelated Englishman, and a lone participant whose lineage remains indefinite. Thankfully, we've had no unanticipated NPEs. I commented initially that our surname, given its relative infrequency, is exceptionally well-suited for a project. That's been validated. I know that I've benefited appreciably from advice received and discussion observed on that "other DNA mailing list" as well as on this list that Diana has helpfully launched. Locally, I've become an improbable DNA guru, whose MS was in an entirely different field but who enjoys providing occasional presentations on this fascinating topic. Charles Acree

Hello All, I just became a member of this list, reading about it on the *other list*. I am trying to educate myself about all things DNA. My y-genealogy goes back to a gr-gr-grandfather. Even lacking a paper trail we were certain of our y-descent from a well-documented English immigrant in the 1630's since all bearing our surname come from this one family. However I find that my y-dna does not match any others of this name , Westcott. The closest I come is 10/12 and 18/25 (LIttleton/Westcott project). I just was tested at FT. At 37 markers there are two of different surnames that I match 33/37 , no Westcotts, of which there are at least 7 others at FT. So any Westcott will be 32/37 or less. This does not bode well. I do match an Adams at SMGF 42/43. It appears this is our ancestral name. I've tried to communicate with this person with no luck, however from the pedigree at SMGF I do find his lineage that goes back to at least 1841 Somerset, England. I verified this with censuses and other data. I realize the link to any ancestral Adams might be very far back in time. I've joined the Adams surname project and the admin, John Walden, has been a terrific help. So far I am predicted R1b1b2 at both FT and SMGF/Genetree. I will order an R Deep Clade test at FT . How close to genealogical time will the closest Rib1b2 clade bring you ? Is the test guaranteed to get you to another level or might you stay at R1b1b2*? How geographic specific is cluster analysis ? What are the chances of the autosomal test being any help finding (presumed)Adams cousins ? It is interesting that the Westcotts and Adams come from the relatively same area of England - Devon/Somerset. The chance always exists that we are Westcotts on a maternal line. Thanks for any help or hints ! Fred

No need to be so modest, Glenn, putting "authority" in quotes. You are one of those ideal members we project admins wish we had more of. You've educated yourself sufficiently to understand your testing. You've subsidized the testing of cousins and have standing offers to test more. You promote the project, even taking test kits on spec to reunions. You actively work on your genealogy and share what you find. You (obviously) lurk on the lists to learn more. Most of all, you took having an NPE with a great deal of grace, for which I admire you immensely. And while we have a lead on your true ancestry, I'm sorry I haven't been able to cinch if for you. You are my shining example. Kudos! Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Glenn Stroup > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 10:01 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Allow me to introduce myself - roll call > > Glenn Stroup here with a belated self introduction. I'm one of > Diana's project members vs. a project administrator and largely > "lurk" on both lists, as well as others. I'm a retired Army > officer/Systems Analyst/Engineer who returned to his East Tennessee > roots almost a decade ago. Have been re-engaged in genealogy and saw > DNA testing as a means to possibly solve several family mysteries. Am > a Board member for our regional Genealogy society (Watauga Assn of > Genealogists) and have, by default, become the DNA "authority." > > I especially like this particular list because the topics are more > germane for me and explanations less esoteric and more > understandable. > > I can personally testify to the surprises that may be revealed, since > my YDNA test shows me as M-222 positive, with a paper trail of German > ancestors since 1710. However, I believe that the mystery will also > be eventually resolved by YDNA and other tests! I have also purchased > both the 23and Me and FTDNA tests of the other chromosomes and have > located at least one more cousin so far. > > Thanks, > > Glenn Stroup > > Diana Said: > > > It has been eons since I asked for a roll call, and this > >might be a good time for it. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message >