1. If you walk down the Y-DNA haplotree, from the top, you will see that L23 appears before L21. http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml 2. It would be extraordinary, even in subclades of haplogroup R, for members of the same family who are matching at levels of 65/67 and 66/67 to be in different subclades. Are you certain all three were tested recently? If K9HKQ was tested some time ago, it might have been before the L21 test was being offered. If you are in a position to check the member page of K9HKQ, I would double-check to see if L21 is really L21- or if it simply hasn't been tested yet. If it has been tested, and the result is negative, I would contact FTDNA and ask them to retest K9HKQ for L21 and explain the reason he should be L21+. As for the differences at 464 and CDY, these would be typical for near family members as those are probably the most volatile of all markers in the standard 67. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 10:04 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] Two Questions > > 1. Is L23 older than L21? > > I have three very close matching individuals at 67Markers. > All three have just recently had Deep Clade Testing done. > All three have L23, but only two have L21. > > Person 1 has L21 & L23 and differs at 464b by 2 > Person 2 has L23 only > Person 3 has L21 & L23 and differs at CDYa by 1 > > Y-Search #1 4YH5F > #2 K9HKQ > #3 ARZ7R > > 2. Which between #2 and #3, is the closest match to #1? > > Names don't matter as #1 is an NPE. > > Hope this isn't too confusing! > > Karen > > > > > Y-DNA - R1b1b2a1b5 - L21 > mtDNA - H1 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message >

1. Is L23 older than L21? I have three very close matching individuals at 67Markers. All three have just recently had Deep Clade Testing done. All three have L23, but only two have L21. Person 1 has L21 & L23 and differs at 464b by 2 Person 2 has L23 only Person 3 has L21 & L23 and differs at CDYa by 1 Y-Search #1 4YH5F #2 K9HKQ #3 ARZ7R 2. Which between #2 and #3, is the closest match to #1? Names don't matter as #1 is an NPE. Hope this isn't too confusing! Karen Y-DNA - R1b1b2a1b5 - L21 mtDNA - H1

It looks like you have a recLOH in your line, and that the differences stem from a single unusual mutation event which resulted in the addition of 2 extra copies of the old DYS464a allele. The genetic distance in this case would be one, so the two lines really are close. It certainly would help to compare the most complete haplotypes possible. Kirsten Saxe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lolene" <lolene3599@sbcglobal.net> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 3:18:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] 464 question 464 is the only marker which is different on a 37 marker test for my line, kit 157653 fewer for the other kit 155979 the results 464 marker a is a match at 12 b 12 and 14 c 12 and 15 d 14 and 16 e 15 and blank (null) f 16 and blank (null) g both blank (null) Surname is the same on both tests.. View at http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/c/camp Tester A is my line with origins in VA 1740 to 1760 Tester B is from the Bahamas in 1875 as the earliest date. Haplo is l1 I'm uncertain how to interpret these results. Any help is appreciated. Is this one that getting the second person to upgrade would help? That's my choice, but it may not be an option, Lolene ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

464 is the only marker which is different on a 37 marker test for my line, kit 157653 fewer for the other kit 155979 the results 464 marker a is a match at 12 b 12 and 14 c 12 and 15 d 14 and 16 e 15 and blank (null) f 16 and blank (null) g both blank (null) Surname is the same on both tests.. View at http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/c/camp Tester A is my line with origins in VA 1740 to 1760 Tester B is from the Bahamas in 1875 as the earliest date. Haplo is l1 I'm uncertain how to interpret these results. Any help is appreciated. Is this one that getting the second person to upgrade would help? That's my choice, but it may not be an option, Lolene

I've recently discovered still another reason, and it's so easy to overcome! I suddenly realized that many people who express interest are terrified of using the internet to place orders. Now I just offer to place the order for them, go to the GAP, select "Add one or more members," choose Invoice mode and it's done. Such a simple fix. Doris On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 3:01 AM, <y-dna-projects-request@rootsweb.com>wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Reasons for not testing (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > 2. Re: R Deep Clade tests (Aaron Hill) > 3. Re: R Deep Clade tests (Karen Johnson) > 4. Re: R Deep Clade tests (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > 5. Re: R Deep Clade tests (dnalister@comcast.net) > 6. Re: R Deep Clade tests (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:25:20 -0400 > From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Reasons for not testing > To: <y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <897AE96DDDC14CCAAD8B0FC6EDEC2C26@HP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > If there is anything that divides people, it's religion, so I'm calling a > halt > to this thread. Anyone who posts to it further will be put on moderation. > If > you have any more to say on this topic, to me or anyone else, please take > it > offlist. I have the last word: > > Yes, some people are against DNA testing because evolution challenges their > religious beliefs. They are not likely to join your project and be tested. > > Diana > Y-DNA-PROJECTS Listadmin > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of RT > > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:50 AM > > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Reasons for not testing > > > > Re a a scientific theory that contradicts their > > interpretations of religious scriptures > <snip> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 13:19:18 -0700 > From: Aaron Hill <hillaj@eou.edu> > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTilKYFhIg4IuguXKuKP7KrK2ui7bIGfajkQztx4o@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Most 'Deep Clade' Tests aren't worth the money. Most haplogroups and > subclades can be accurately determined with enough STR markers. The more > STR > testing the better. For example, if DYS 455 is 8, then the person is > overwhelmingly likely to be haplogroup I1. > > Aaron > > On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:05 PM, fred westcott <westcott.fred@gmail.com > >wrote: > > > What can I expect on an R Deep Clade test? Does FT test SNP's only > > back to R to confirm what they have predicted, in my case R1b1b2 ? Or > > do they continue testing as far as they can go down the branches ? > > And if so is it possible that beyond M269 if I test negative for L23 > > L49 that I stay at R1b1b2 ? Do some people deadend here,i.e. their > > branch has no further mutations ? Or is it a case of as yet > > undiscovered SNP's ? > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:22:18 -0400 > From: Karen Johnson <karenj@ca.inter.net> > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <201006152122.o5FLMT2j031584@mail.rootsweb.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Diana > When I had my son tested all they checked was M222, and as he was > positive, they just stopped there. After I complained, they added L21. > > Karen > > > >When you order deep SNP testing, FTDNA will look at your haplotype > >and estimate > >what your haplogroup probably is, then design a testing strategy that will > >determine your haplogroup using the fewest possible tests, to keep the > price > >down. If you are deduced to be R1b1b2, they will likely begin the > >testing with > >M269. > >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 21:40:17 -0400 > From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > To: <y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <87E7330B164642E7A64104B4C67A8FEE@HP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > L21 is upstream of M222: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > If you were positive for M222, you didn't need to test L21. IMO, they were > being very gracious by accommodating you. > > This is what I meant when I said they will deduce your haplogroup via your > haplotype, then test the fewest needed SNPs to prove it. If they tested > everyone for all their upstream SNPs (i.e., if they began with M207 and > worked > their way down the haplotree), deep SNP testing would be much more > expensive. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:22 PM > > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > > > Diana > > When I had my son tested all they checked was M222, and as he was > > positive, they just stopped there. After I complained, they > > added L21. > > > > Karen > > > > > > > When you order deep SNP testing, FTDNA will look at your > > > haplotype and estimate what your haplogroup probably is, > > > then design a testing strategy that will determine your > > > haplogroup using the fewest possible tests, to keep the > > > price down. If you are deduced to be R1b1b2, they will > > > likely begin the testing with M269. > > >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 01:48:39 +0000 (UTC) > From: dnalister@comcast.net > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > < > 86438502.5714371276652919249.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > They seem to be willing to test a second SNP when they guess right and get > a downstream positive result on their first try, but I think it might be > good strategy to wait until a SNP even further downstream is discovered, and > then see if they will test for that one. Since SNPs can occur at more than > one place in the tree, it's a good policy to at least eventually end up with > results for the most downstream SNP known for a particular branch as well as > one immediately above it on the tree. > > Kirsten > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:40:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > L21 is upstream of M222: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > If you were positive for M222, you didn't need to test L21. IMO, they were > being very gracious by accommodating you. > > This is what I meant when I said they will deduce your haplogroup via your > haplotype, then test the fewest needed SNPs to prove it. If they tested > everyone for all their upstream SNPs (i.e., if they began with M207 and > worked > their way down the haplotree), deep SNP testing would be much more > expensive. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:22 PM > > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > > > Diana > > When I had my son tested all they checked was M222, and as he was > > positive, they just stopped there. After I complained, they > > added L21. > > > > Karen > > > > > > > When you order deep SNP testing, FTDNA will look at your > > > haplotype and estimate what your haplogroup probably is, > > > then design a testing strategy that will determine your > > > haplogroup using the fewest possible tests, to keep the > > > price down. If you are deduced to be R1b1b2, they will > > > likely begin the testing with M269. > > >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 00:35:42 -0400 > From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > To: <y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <943A079084DC4D4E9E1F56AD7FD62410@HP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's your prerogative to wait to be deep SNP tested until more SNPs are > discovered, but the discovery process is going to go on for years. At what > point do you dive in? And if everyone sits back and waits for that time, > the > hunt for new SNPs will end. If people don't get SNP tested along the > way, > there will be no money to do the research -- and no commercial incentive to > do > it. If you want commercial labs to keep looking for new, usable tests, you > have > to give them a reason to make the investment by taking the tests they > develop. > We went from 12 to 25 to 37 to 67 STR markers because genealogists were > clamoring for more markers -- and obviously willing to pay for them. > > Your deep SNP testing only covers the SNPs that are known at the time you > test. > If more downstream SNPs are discovered later, you will be asked to pay for > the > individual tests as the SNPs are discovered. If you want to buy a "SNP > annuity" > that will guarantee they continue to test your sample for new SNPs, > indefinitely, it will cost you much more to be tested. > > There's no harm in testing upstream SNPs, but there's typically no need to > do > it, and certainly no need to raise the price of SNP testing for everyone to > do > it for everyone. As I said, I think they were generous to give a test that > was > unnecessary, just to keep a customer happy. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of > dnalister@comcast.net > > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:49 PM > > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > > > They seem to be willing to test a second SNP when they guess > > right and get a downstream positive result on their first > > try, but I think it might be good strategy to wait until a > > SNP even further downstream is discovered, and then see if > > they will test for that one. Since SNPs can occur at more > > than one place in the tree, it's a good policy to at least > > eventually end up with results for the most downstream SNP > > known for a particular branch as well as one immediately > > above it on the tree. > > > > Kirsten > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of Y-DNA-PROJECTS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 93 > ********************************************* >

Yes. I summarize the Y-DNA here: http://danishdemes.org/YDNA-results.shtml and the mtDNA here: http://danishdemes.org/YDNA-results.shtml >From those pages you can link to the individual haplogroups. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Cliff. Johnston > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 7:35 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Confusing R1b Matches or Coincidences? > > Diana, > > So, can you give us a breakdown as to numbers and haplogroups > in your Danish group? > > Thanks, > > Cliff.

Diana, So, can you give us a breakdown as to numbers and haplogroups in your Danish group? Thanks, Cliff. "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> To: <y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Confusing R1b Matches or Coincidences? > Many of the native Danes who join my Danish Demes project do so having > first > been tested at the National Geographic Society's Genographic Project. > They only > test 12-markers for the Genographic project, so these people are all > entering > the project with just 12 markers tested. I do try to get them to upgrade, > but > not all do. There are a lot of people missing out on connecting with > living > Europeans because they turn off 12-marker matches. > > Diana > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Martha H. Bowes >> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 6:08 PM >> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Confusing R1b Matches or Coincidences? >> >> The problem with not showing matches at 12 markers is that >> you will not be notified if you have a new match with your >> surname who only tested 12 markers. I was doing something >> else and looking through one of my participant's 12 marker >> matches and there was a match with the same surname that >> could only be seen after clicking to expand up to 1000 >> matches.(I suspect many casual participants don't even know >> you can click to see more.) He did not have his preference >> set to show 12 matches. Consequently he knew nothing of this >> one and I just happened to stumble on it. Now he can e-mail >> that match and ask that he upgrade his markers. >> >> Martha >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many of the native Danes who join my Danish Demes project do so having first been tested at the National Geographic Society's Genographic Project. They only test 12-markers for the Genographic project, so these people are all entering the project with just 12 markers tested. I do try to get them to upgrade, but not all do. There are a lot of people missing out on connecting with living Europeans because they turn off 12-marker matches. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Martha H. Bowes > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 6:08 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Confusing R1b Matches or Coincidences? > > The problem with not showing matches at 12 markers is that > you will not be notified if you have a new match with your > surname who only tested 12 markers. I was doing something > else and looking through one of my participant's 12 marker > matches and there was a match with the same surname that > could only be seen after clicking to expand up to 1000 > matches.(I suspect many casual participants don't even know > you can click to see more.) He did not have his preference > set to show 12 matches. Consequently he knew nothing of this > one and I just happened to stumble on it. Now he can e-mail > that match and ask that he upgrade his markers. > > Martha >

The estimated date for return of results is *very* rough. It's not unusual for results to return early, nor is it unusual for them to be late. If they have to re-run the tests, you can double the return time. You can check to see if any tests are being re-run by going to the "Pending Results" tab on your member page. To avoid any unnecessarily nail-biting, the secret is to send in your kit and forget about it -- and the target return date. The results will return when they return. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of fred westcott > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 2:45 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] FTDNA testing schedule > > My FT y-67 marker panels were slated for completion July 21, however > they came in 1-60 last week and 61-67 today, more than a month ahead > of schedule. Do they build in a tremendous fudge factor or has > something extraordinary happpened ? > I know that there is a sale going on. Are they clearing the decks > anticipating a large increase in business ? > Can they also be quite behind schedule ? > How serious should we take their published schedules ? Should we > calculate their scheduled completions +/- a month ? > Fred >

I've added a "SNP chart" for Haplogroup Q on my web site, comparing the FTDNA tree to the ISOGG tree: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/Q_2010-06-12.shtml Diana

The problem with not showing matches at 12 markers is that you will not be notified if you have a new match with your surname who only tested 12 markers. I was doing something else and looking through one of my participant's 12 marker matches and there was a match with the same surname that could only be seen after clicking to expand up to 1000 matches.(I suspect many casual participants don't even know you can click to see more.) He did not have his preference set to show 12 matches. Consequently he knew nothing of this one and I just happened to stumble on it. Now he can e-mail that match and ask that he upgrade his markers. Martha I agree that this occurs and I can see why. At least for R1b1b2 people, 12 marker matches are almost useless. Mike On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:45 AM, Debbie Kennett <debbiekennett@aol.com>wrote: > > Often the reason why the matches don't show up at 12, 25 or 37 markers is > simply that people have chosen not to receive match notifications at these > levels. Most people with lots of matches at 12 markers seem to switch off > the 12-marker matches. With R1b and I1 people can sometimes have over 1000 > matches at the 12-marker level. > > Debbie Kennett

My FT y-67 marker panels were slated for completion July 21, however they came in 1-60 last week and 61-67 today, more than a month ahead of schedule. Do they build in a tremendous fudge factor or has something extraordinary happpened ? I know that there is a sale going on. Are they clearing the decks anticipating a large increase in business ? Can they also be quite behind schedule ? How serious should we take their published schedules ? Should we calculate their scheduled completions +/- a month ? Fred

We had a thread recently about project members who had no haplogroup listed in their test results, just a dash. Shortly before the thread began, I requested the backbone test for five members of the White project. The test results came in today. So if you have been waiting more than three or four weeks to get this information for members of your projects, I suggest you make the request again. Marleen Van Horne

DYS455=8 is an excellent way to separate Hg I1 from Hg I2, but not in every case because about 2% of Hg I1 are 7 or 9 at that marker. The mutations to 7 or 9 are believed to be subsequent to the original deletion from 11 to 8, some 10,000 years ago. A subclade of J2b (tentatively assigned to J2b1a4) is also 8 at DYS455, though that deletion is believed to be quite recent, probably within the last 1000 years. Still, I probably would have agreed with you that it's pointless for an I1 to deep SNP test, until the discovery of L22, but now that we have it, it's just too important a divider for the group to not test it. However, we were talking about R1b1b2 where is certainly a need to deep clade test. I keep bringing up this example because its so telling, but there has been a case of two R1b1b2's matching 60/67 who, when deep SNP tested, turned out to be in different subclades. As more people are tested, the problem of coincidental haplotypes is only going to increase. I approach genetic genealogy as a scientist, and in science, you cannot draw conclusions based on assumptions. You draw conclusions based on evidence, so you *always* run the tests. For me, "overwhelmingly likely" is just not good enough. And if you routinely deduce haplogroups, rather than test for them, you are bound to miss any exceptions there might be. I do agree that there's little point in everyone in the same family being deep SNP tested, once one member is tested. Though even in the same family there can be surprises with SNP testing. I have a man who has an mtDNA mutation not shared by his maternal grandmother's brother, so the new mutation had to have happened in him, his mother, or his maternal grandmother. The additional tests are pending. I think if deep clade testing were perceived as not being worth the money, you wouldn't see so many people doing it, and it's not like the tests are hideously expensive. Diana, confirmed testing junkie > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Aaron Hill > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:19 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > Most 'Deep Clade' Tests aren't worth the money. Most haplogroups and > subclades can be accurately determined with enough STR > markers. The more STR > testing the better. For example, if DYS 455 is 8, then the person is > overwhelmingly likely to be haplogroup I1. > > Aaron >

They seem to be willing to test a second SNP when they guess right and get a downstream positive result on their first try, but I think it might be good strategy to wait until a SNP even further downstream is discovered, and then see if they will test for that one. Since SNPs can occur at more than one place in the tree, it's a good policy to at least eventually end up with results for the most downstream SNP known for a particular branch as well as one immediately above it on the tree. Kirsten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Gale Matthiesen" <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:40:17 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests L21 is upstream of M222: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml If you were positive for M222, you didn't need to test L21. IMO, they were being very gracious by accommodating you. This is what I meant when I said they will deduce your haplogroup via your haplotype, then test the fewest needed SNPs to prove it. If they tested everyone for all their upstream SNPs (i.e., if they began with M207 and worked their way down the haplotree), deep SNP testing would be much more expensive. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:22 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > Diana > When I had my son tested all they checked was M222, and as he was > positive, they just stopped there. After I complained, they > added L21. > > Karen > > > > When you order deep SNP testing, FTDNA will look at your > > haplotype and estimate what your haplogroup probably is, > > then design a testing strategy that will determine your > > haplogroup using the fewest possible tests, to keep the > > price down. If you are deduced to be R1b1b2, they will > > likely begin the testing with M269. > >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's your prerogative to wait to be deep SNP tested until more SNPs are discovered, but the discovery process is going to go on for years. At what point do you dive in? And if everyone sits back and waits for that time, the hunt for new SNPs will end. If people don't get SNP tested along the way, there will be no money to do the research -- and no commercial incentive to do it. If you want commercial labs to keep looking for new, usable tests, you have to give them a reason to make the investment by taking the tests they develop. We went from 12 to 25 to 37 to 67 STR markers because genealogists were clamoring for more markers -- and obviously willing to pay for them. Your deep SNP testing only covers the SNPs that are known at the time you test. If more downstream SNPs are discovered later, you will be asked to pay for the individual tests as the SNPs are discovered. If you want to buy a "SNP annuity" that will guarantee they continue to test your sample for new SNPs, indefinitely, it will cost you much more to be tested. There's no harm in testing upstream SNPs, but there's typically no need to do it, and certainly no need to raise the price of SNP testing for everyone to do it for everyone. As I said, I think they were generous to give a test that was unnecessary, just to keep a customer happy. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of dnalister@comcast.net > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:49 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > They seem to be willing to test a second SNP when they guess > right and get a downstream positive result on their first > try, but I think it might be good strategy to wait until a > SNP even further downstream is discovered, and then see if > they will test for that one. Since SNPs can occur at more > than one place in the tree, it's a good policy to at least > eventually end up with results for the most downstream SNP > known for a particular branch as well as one immediately > above it on the tree. > > Kirsten >

L21 is upstream of M222: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml If you were positive for M222, you didn't need to test L21. IMO, they were being very gracious by accommodating you. This is what I meant when I said they will deduce your haplogroup via your haplotype, then test the fewest needed SNPs to prove it. If they tested everyone for all their upstream SNPs (i.e., if they began with M207 and worked their way down the haplotree), deep SNP testing would be much more expensive. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:22 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] R Deep Clade tests > > Diana > When I had my son tested all they checked was M222, and as he was > positive, they just stopped there. After I complained, they > added L21. > > Karen > > > > When you order deep SNP testing, FTDNA will look at your > > haplotype and estimate what your haplogroup probably is, > > then design a testing strategy that will determine your > > haplogroup using the fewest possible tests, to keep the > > price down. If you are deduced to be R1b1b2, they will > > likely begin the testing with M269. > >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > >

Diana When I had my son tested all they checked was M222, and as he was positive, they just stopped there. After I complained, they added L21. Karen >When you order deep SNP testing, FTDNA will look at your haplotype >and estimate >what your haplogroup probably is, then design a testing strategy that will >determine your haplogroup using the fewest possible tests, to keep the price >down. If you are deduced to be R1b1b2, they will likely begin the >testing with >M269. >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml

Most 'Deep Clade' Tests aren't worth the money. Most haplogroups and subclades can be accurately determined with enough STR markers. The more STR testing the better. For example, if DYS 455 is 8, then the person is overwhelmingly likely to be haplogroup I1. Aaron On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:05 PM, fred westcott <westcott.fred@gmail.com>wrote: > What can I expect on an R Deep Clade test? Does FT test SNP's only > back to R to confirm what they have predicted, in my case R1b1b2 ? Or > do they continue testing as far as they can go down the branches ? > And if so is it possible that beyond M269 if I test negative for L23 > L49 that I stay at R1b1b2 ? Do some people deadend here,i.e. their > branch has no further mutations ? Or is it a case of as yet > undiscovered SNP's ?

If there is anything that divides people, it's religion, so I'm calling a halt to this thread. Anyone who posts to it further will be put on moderation. If you have any more to say on this topic, to me or anyone else, please take it offlist. I have the last word: Yes, some people are against DNA testing because evolution challenges their religious beliefs. They are not likely to join your project and be tested. Diana Y-DNA-PROJECTS Listadmin > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of RT > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 2:50 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Reasons for not testing > > Re a a scientific theory that contradicts their > interpretations of religious scriptures <snip>