Trevor According to reports on the ISOGG project admins mailing list the new dashboard is going to be discontinued as it was so unpopular. The existing GAP is in the process of being revamped with additional facilities and is currently in beta-testing. It might be best to wait until the new system becomes available. Debbie Kennett

Diana, FYI you were right, after he request information again, FT has changed Alan's results to L21. Karen >Well, that would give you the answer as to exactly what is happening >with L21... >

You've got me with the acronyms, Ralph. Can you please tell me what CMA, GGS, and GTF stand for? Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Ralph Taylor > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 5:10 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Y-DNA-PROJECTS Which mutation > path is morelikely? > > Gregory wrote: "Please help settle a dispute. > > "1. A man born in 1658 has 35 repeats at cdy-b. His > great-great-grandson > born in 1822 has mutated up to 37 repeats at cdy-b. The second man's > great-great-grandson born in 1965 has back-mutated to 36 > repeats at cdy-b, > while two other descendants (one through a different son of > the man born in > 1822, one through the same) still have 37. > > "2. The same man born in 1658 still has 35 repeats at cdy-b, > but this time > his great-great-grandson born in 1822 has only 36 repeats at > cdy-b. Two of > his descendants through different sons both mutate > independently to 37, > while a third remains at 36." > > Others will, no doubt, address the volatility, multi-copy & > palindromic > aspects of CDY (AKA, DSY724), as well as the reporting of > CYDa & CDYb. I'll > focus on the epistemology. > > It is important _HOW_ you "know" the posited values (for CMA > b.1658 & GGS > b.1822). The dispute may be an artifact of over-interpreting; > both scenarios > (and others) are plausible. The most likely scenario is not > included above; > it is that CMA b.1685, & GGS b.1822, had values found in descendants. > > The men born in 1658 & 1822 can not have been alive in the > 21st century for > actual Y-DNA testing. Without testing, we can not state their > CDY values > with any certainty. > > What can really be known here are the values for the men > tested -- i.e., > CDYb=37 for two & CDYb=36 for another. Assuming this is the > only marker > where mismatches are found, it is highly probable that the > three men share a > CMA within GTF and that that CMA had CDY values of either. > > As to "back-mutated", this term must be hypothetical or a conclusion. > Perhaps, you've "triangulated" (with other descendants) to > estimate CDYb > values of b.1658 & b.1822. This method yields only > probabilistic estimates, > with confidence limits unknown to us readers. > > Conclusion: Neither mutation scenario is more likely than the > other on the > data provided -- the basis for assumed data is unstated. More > likely than > either is that CMA b.1658 & GGS b.1822 had CDYb=36 or CDYb=37. > > -rt_/) AKA, ralph > >

Thanks for your reply Gary. The clue is the word "dashboard". I was using the old GAP, not the new GAP dashboard. Following your instructions I could see how to configure the columns in the Results Page that I see in my GAP, but not how to configure the columns that the public sees in the Results Page on the project public website. The answer is to use the Project Website widget in the new GAP dashboard where the options I was looking for exist. Those options are not there in the Setup Public Website in the old GAP. Maybe this is a lesson to use and the learn the new GAP now that I have a faster broadband connection. Trevor Rix > On your GAP dashboard bring up "YDNA Results" then click on "Configure the > Results Page" the select the "Viewable Columns" that you want shown. > > Gary Blakely > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Trevor Rix > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:54 AM > To: Y-DNA-PROJECTS@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] Haplo and Haplo Shorthand columns > > I have discovered today that there is a choice in the FTDNA "Setup Public > Website" options for Chart Type - Classic or Flash. > > My question is, how do I include columns for Haplo and Haplo Shorthand in > the Flash option that I see on some FTDNA public websites, for example > that for Cannon? In my Rix project those column headings are visible > initially as the chart builds, but then disappear. > > See > http://tinyurl.com/37ku9a5 > and > http://tinyurl.com/26jtbnq > > The HG (haplogroup) column is visible if I opt for a Classic chart, but > not in a Flash chart. I'm just playing with the options at present until I > settle on a preferred chart type. > > Thanks, > > Trevor Rix

I have discovered today that there is a choice in the FTDNA "Setup Public Website" options for Chart Type - Classic or Flash. My question is, how do I include columns for Haplo and Haplo Shorthand in the Flash option that I see on some FTDNA public websites, for example that for Cannon? In my Rix project those column headings are visible initially as the chart builds, but then disappear. See http://tinyurl.com/37ku9a5 and http://tinyurl.com/26jtbnq The HG (haplogroup) column is visible if I opt for a Classic chart, but not in a Flash chart. I'm just playing with the options at present until I settle on a preferred chart type. Thanks, Trevor Rix

Gregory wrote: "Please help settle a dispute. "1. A man born in 1658 has 35 repeats at cdy-b. His great-great-grandson born in 1822 has mutated up to 37 repeats at cdy-b. The second man's great-great-grandson born in 1965 has back-mutated to 36 repeats at cdy-b, while two other descendants (one through a different son of the man born in 1822, one through the same) still have 37. "2. The same man born in 1658 still has 35 repeats at cdy-b, but this time his great-great-grandson born in 1822 has only 36 repeats at cdy-b. Two of his descendants through different sons both mutate independently to 37, while a third remains at 36." Others will, no doubt, address the volatility, multi-copy & palindromic aspects of CDY (AKA, DSY724), as well as the reporting of CYDa & CDYb. I'll focus on the epistemology. It is important _HOW_ you "know" the posited values (for CMA b.1658 & GGS b.1822). The dispute may be an artifact of over-interpreting; both scenarios (and others) are plausible. The most likely scenario is not included above; it is that CMA b.1685, & GGS b.1822, had values found in descendants. The men born in 1658 & 1822 can not have been alive in the 21st century for actual Y-DNA testing. Without testing, we can not state their CDY values with any certainty. What can really be known here are the values for the men tested -- i.e., CDYb=37 for two & CDYb=36 for another. Assuming this is the only marker where mismatches are found, it is highly probable that the three men share a CMA within GTF and that that CMA had CDY values of either. As to "back-mutated", this term must be hypothetical or a conclusion. Perhaps, you've "triangulated" (with other descendants) to estimate CDYb values of b.1658 & b.1822. This method yields only probabilistic estimates, with confidence limits unknown to us readers. Conclusion: Neither mutation scenario is more likely than the other on the data provided -- the basis for assumed data is unstated. More likely than either is that CMA b.1658 & GGS b.1822 had CDYb=36 or CDYb=37. -rt_/) AKA, ralph

On your GAP dashboard bring up "YDNA Results" then click on "Configure the Results Page" the select the "Viewable Columns" that you want shown. Gary Blakely -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Trevor Rix Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:54 AM To: Y-DNA-PROJECTS@rootsweb.com Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] Haplo and Haplo Shorthand columns I have discovered today that there is a choice in the FTDNA "Setup Public Website" options for Chart Type - Classic or Flash. My question is, how do I include columns for Haplo and Haplo Shorthand in the Flash option that I see on some FTDNA public websites, for example that for Cannon? In my Rix project those column headings are visible initially as the chart builds, but then disappear. See http://tinyurl.com/37ku9a5 and http://tinyurl.com/26jtbnq The HG (haplogroup) column is visible if I opt for a Classic chart, but not in a Flash chart. I'm just playing with the options at present until I settle on a preferred chart type. Thanks, Trevor Rix ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well, that would give you the answer as to exactly what is happening with L21... > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 9:59 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Two Questions (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > > Sorry Diana, > I don't have his password to be able to check that. > I only have the print screen of the previous page > which shows the results. > I would have to e-mail him in Australia to find out > which would take time. This is not a part of a > Project, just three people in contact with each other. > Karen > > > On Alan's haplotree on his member page, what color is the > > text in the line for L21? Is it brown (for negative), green > > (for positive), or blue, (for test in progress)? Or is the > > text black? > > > >Diana >

Sorry Diana, I don't have his password to be able to check that. I only have the print screen of the previous page which shows the results. I would have to e-mail him in Australia to find out which would take time. This is not a part of a Project, just three people in contact with each other. Karen >On Alan's haplotree on his member page, what color is the text in the line for >L21? Is it brown (for negative), green (for positive), or blue, (for test in >progress)? Or is the text black? > >Diana

Please help settle a dispute. 1. A man born in 1658 has 35 repeats at cdy-b. His great-great-grandson born in 1822 has mutated up to 37 repeats at cdy-b. The second man's great-great-grandson born in 1965 has back-mutated to 36 repeats at cdy-b, while two other descendants (one through a different son of the man born in 1822, one through the same) still have 37. 2. The same man born in 1658 still has 35 repeats at cdy-b, but this time his great-great-grandson born in 1822 has only 36 repeats at cdy-b. Two of his descendants through different sons both mutate independently to 37, while a third remains at 36. Thanks for your help.

On Alan's haplotree on his member page, what color is the text in the line for L21? Is it brown (for negative), green (for positive), or blue, (for test in progress)? Or is the text black? Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2010 10:16 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Two Questions (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > > Diana, > > Sorry, but I forgot to mention that the three SNPs following L21 were > on the Haplotree and not on the Screen Print. > > My e-mail from K9HKQ (Alan) tells me that he first contacted > FTDNA because of the delay in results. They told him that some > of the results were inconclusive and had to be re-done. Their > reply mentioned that some SNPs were pending (L21was listed > among them) The reply to his asking about L21 said that they > were presently working on U152. But on the final results L21 > is missing. > > Thanks Diana, I appreciate your input. > > Karen >

Diana, Sorry, but I forgot to mention that the three SNPs following L21 were on the Haplotree and not on the Screen Print. My e-mail from K9HKQ (Alan) tells me that he first contacted FTDNA because of the delay in results. They told him that some of the results were inconclusive and had to be re-done. Their reply mentioned that some SNPs were pending (L21was listed among them) The reply to his asking about L21 said that they were presently working on U152. But on the final results L21 is missing. Thanks Diana, I appreciate your input. Karen >Diana, > >Yes all three were recently done, 2 in 1 batch, and the 3rd in the >following batch. > >K9HKQ (Alan) sent me a screen shot of his results. They checked a total of 22 >SNP's. FT had trouble with some of them and re-did them. L21 is not >listed as >one of the SNP's tested but the three following it are listed as negative. > >None of these three men can prove a relationship on paper, but were hoping to >be able to prove it with DNA. > >Karen > > > >1. If you walk down the Y-DNA haplotree, from the top, you will > see that L23 > >appears before L21. > >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > > > >2. It would be extraordinary, even in subclades of haplogroup R, > >for members of > >the same family who are matching at levels of 65/67 and 66/67 to be > >in different > >subclades. Are you certain all three were tested recently? If > >K9HKQ was tested > >some time ago, it might have been before the L21 test was being offered. > > > >If you are in a position to check the member page of K9HKQ, I would > >double-check > >to see if L21 is really L21- or if it simply hasn't been tested > >yet. If it has > >been tested, and the result is negative, I would contact FTDNA and > ask them to > >retest K9HKQ for L21 and explain the reason he should be L21+. > > > >As for the differences at 464 and CDY, these would be typical for > near family > >members as those are probably the most volatile of all markers in > the standard > >67. > > > >Diana

I've updated my HTML version of Ken Nordtvedt's Haplogroup I spreadsheet, with the markers in FTDNA order: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.shtml I've also updated the comparison of the I1 and I2 haplotree versions from Nordtvedt, ISOGG, and FTDNA: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/DNA-hub.shtml#Haplotrees With thanks to Ken, as always, for sharing the fruits of his research. Good hunting, Diana

For those who do test L21+, please join the R-L21Plus project. http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join-request.aspx?group=R-L21Plus There are a number of researchers using the data from this project. There is an on-going effort to determine the origin and expansion of R-L21 (R1b1b2a1b5 in FTDNA terminology). Regards, Mike ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> Date: Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Two Questions (Diana Gale Matthiesen) To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com If L21 isn't listed among the SNP test results for K9HKQ, then it wasn't tested, at least not successfully. You need to bug FTDNA to run the test. On the client's member page, the SNP test results are listed on the Haplotree tab in simple alpha-numeric order, which has no relationship to their position on the haplotree. IOW, the order they are listed is of no genetic or genealogical significance. What matters is which ones were positive and which ones were negative. When the L21 test is run, he will almost certain be positive for L21, and with matches at the level of 65/67 and 66/67, I wouldn't doubt that they have a near common ancestor. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 12:17 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Two Questions (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > > Diana, > > Yes all three were recently done, 2 in 1 batch, and the 3rd in the > following batch. > > K9HKQ (Alan) sent me a screen shot of his results. They > checked a total of 22 SNP's. FT had trouble with some of them > and re-did them. L21 is not listed as one of the SNP's tested > but the three following it are listed as negative. > > None of these three men can prove a relationship on paper, > but were hoping to be able to prove it with DNA. > > Karen > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If L21 isn't listed among the SNP test results for K9HKQ, then it wasn't tested, at least not successfully. You need to bug FTDNA to run the test. On the client's member page, the SNP test results are listed on the Haplotree tab in simple alpha-numeric order, which has no relationship to their position on the haplotree. IOW, the order they are listed is of no genetic or genealogical significance. What matters is which ones were positive and which ones were negative. When the L21 test is run, he will almost certain be positive for L21, and with matches at the level of 65/67 and 66/67, I wouldn't doubt that they have a near common ancestor. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Karen Johnson > Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 12:17 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Y-DNA-projects] Two Questions (Diana Gale Matthiesen) > > Diana, > > Yes all three were recently done, 2 in 1 batch, and the 3rd in the > following batch. > > K9HKQ (Alan) sent me a screen shot of his results. They > checked a total of 22 SNP's. FT had trouble with some of them > and re-did them. L21 is not listed as one of the SNP's tested > but the three following it are listed as negative. > > None of these three men can prove a relationship on paper, > but were hoping to be able to prove it with DNA. > > Karen >

Diana, I had trouble finding one person to do the test in my family, so it is difficult to think about getting another. Would a known genetic kin from a different line be acceptable? I have contact with a male Kemp who was tested in another place (found us on a YSearch). I haven't seen his results, so I know nothing other than he shares a name and says we are kin. I have seen the paper trail, but not his genetic profile. He has shown an interest in the genetics, so it might be that he would do another test which I may have to provide, or pay to have his results transferred. My question is would it be a way to get a partial answer? Or would it be a waste of time and money? He would be more distant than you suggested. Lolene

Diana, Yes all three were recently done, 2 in 1 batch, and the 3rd in the following batch. K9HKQ (Alan) sent me a screen shot of his results. They checked a total of 22 SNP's. FT had trouble with some of them and re-did them. L21 is not listed as one of the SNP's tested but the three following it are listed as negative. None of these three men can prove a relationship on paper, but were hoping to be able to prove it with DNA. Karen >1. If you walk down the Y-DNA haplotree, from the top, you will see that L23 >appears before L21. >http://dgmweb.net/DNA/SNPcharts/R1b_2010-02-12.shtml > >2. It would be extraordinary, even in subclades of haplogroup R, >for members of >the same family who are matching at levels of 65/67 and 66/67 to be >in different >subclades. Are you certain all three were tested recently? If >K9HKQ was tested >some time ago, it might have been before the L21 test was being offered. > >If you are in a position to check the member page of K9HKQ, I would >double-check >to see if L21 is really L21- or if it simply hasn't been tested >yet. If it has >been tested, and the result is negative, I would contact FTDNA and ask them to >retest K9HKQ for L21 and explain the reason he should be L21+. > >As for the differences at 464 and CDY, these would be typical for near family >members as those are probably the most volatile of all markers in the standard >67. > >Diana

Hello Rick, All the modals on my page: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.shtml were copied from Ken Nordtvedt's page, as of 9 Jun 2009: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/FounderHaps.xls I did not apply conversion factors to Nordtvedt's figures. All I did was put the markers in FTDNA order and rearrange some rows so they complied with FTDNA's haplotree. You would have to ask Ken whether he applied conversion factors, or not. He subscribes to the Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I mailing list, so that would be the best place to ask: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/DNA/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I.html And it's hard for me to believe it's been a year since I last updated this page. It seems like yesterday. I'll try to get it updated, today. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Fredric Z. Saunders > Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 10:09 AM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] I2b1a (for Diana) > > Hi, > > One of my distant cousins got his deep clade results back on > an ancestor, and it is I2b1a (M284), which is what I was > expecting from their marker results. They can be seen as > B-4 on my page: > http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/baydna.html > > On Diana's page at: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.shtml > this to me matches most closely the IslesS variety, which is why I was > expecting his results to be I2b1a. > > My question is, that GATA A10 on Diana's page for I2b1a is > listed as a modal of 15. From the Sorenson site, the three that > tested there are listed as GATA A10 of 14, which converts to > FTDNA numbers (which I show on my page) of 12. > > Diana, is the modal of 15 on your page in NIST (ISOGG) > numbers (difference of 1 from my line), or in FTDNA numbers > (distance of 3 from my line)? > > Rick Saunders >

Hi, One of my distant cousins got his deep clade results back on an ancestor, and it is I2b1a (M284), which is what I was expecting from their marker results. They can be seen as B-4 on my page: http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/baydna.html On Diana's page at: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.shtml this to me matches most closely the IslesS variety, which is why I was expecting his results to be I2b1a. My question is, that GATA A10 on Diana's page for I2b1a is listed as a modal of 15. From the Sorenson site, the three that tested there are listed as GATA A10 of 14, which converts to FTDNA numbers (which I show on my page) of 12. Diana, is the modal of 15 on your page in NIST (ISOGG) numbers (difference of 1 from my line), or in FTDNA numbers (distance of 3 from my line)? Rick Saunders

I would first realign the markers to produce the fewest differences: 12 14 15 16 12 12 12 14 15 16 When you do realign them, it's immediately apparant what has happened here: the 12 allele has been copied two extra times. I would count it as a GD (genetic distance) of one because the duplication probably happened as a single mutation event. Only about 1.5% of people tested have more that four alleles at DYS464, and you've just found one of them. To prove whether it happened as a single event or two, you can test cousins, beginning with a first cousin, then a second cousin, etc. As for upgrading, I'm always for testing 67 markers, but you may want to wait until more family members are tested. This family is an example of one where one member has six alleles at DYS464: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.shtml#data but it also illustrates an important point. This family is very uniform for the first 37 markers. Much of what little variation it has appears in Panel 4 (markers 38-67). You can't predict where the variation in a family will be, until after you take the tests. As an extreme in the other direction, my CARRICOs have almost no variation in the 4th panel: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Carrico/CarricoDNA-results-HgJ2a4b.shtml#data Then again, what there is may eventually turn out to be important in connecting branches. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-projects-bounces@rootsweb.com On Behalf Of Lolene > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 3:19 PM > To: y-dna-projects@rootsweb.com > Subject: [Y-DNA-projects] 464 question > > > 464 is the only marker which is different on a 37 marker test > for my line, kit 157653 fewer for the other kit 155979 > > the results > 464 marker > a is a match at 12 > b 12 and 14 > c 12 and 15 > d 14 and 16 > e 15 and blank (null) > f 16 and blank (null) > g both blank (null) > > Surname is the same on both tests.. View at > http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/c/camp > > Tester A is my line with origins in VA 1740 to 1760 > Tester B is from the Bahamas in 1875 as the earliest date. > > Haplo is l1 > > I'm uncertain how to interpret these results. Any help is > appreciated. Is > this one that getting the second person to upgrade would > help? That's my > choice, but it may not be an option, > > Lolene > > > >