Ken, I have been putting off upgrading my dad's Y 67 out to 111. I kept finding other ways to spend the money I already don't have, mainly FF tests for several of my own family. If you could take a look at the Y STR chart for the 'Dennis' group in the SPRINGER project, we have quite a few participants in this group. Reason being we were trying to ID family lines, and we did to a small degree. I have put a matching non-Springer in the chart just so you can compare, they have gone out to 111 and are also P109. There is no FF match between 182783 and the only other 2 in this group who have done the FF. I'm only mentioning this as a minor detail. So do you mean that you are finding sub-clades in I1 by comparing these 111 upgrades. If I were to upgrade my dad 24291 to 111 from 67, with only two in this group then up to 111, would that show anything? If they don't match 100% in this panel, or do, I don't see how that would tell me anything, without getting at least one each from each of the family groups within this group. There is no way I can upgrade any of the others in the group, and no one else really shows an interest. And since 182783's paper trail indicates a different origin, I'm trying to find the justification to spend the money :( SS only goes so far, but I feel if I don't do this, no one else will either. I just need something to push me over the edge. melissa springer robards On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: snip > Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I.  And then I use that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. > So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your information will not go to waste.  And it would help if you suggested to FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its restrictions on purchase. > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt snip