Melissa, It is not totally clear what you would be looking for with your extension to 111 markers within such a tight surname cluster. I assume the unnamed 182783 is another Springer, but maybe not? P109+ has no distinquishing clade marker values which make it distinct from basic L22+ I1-N It is amazing. I think P109+ must have occurred extremely soon after the L22+ happened. If your Dad upgraded you would get a slightly more accurate representation of the 68-111 markers for the Springer MRCA. I would expect a difference or two among the 68-111. But then you'd probably want a third to break the 1/1 deadlocks on the differing values. Do you know by paper how young is your Springer cluster? It looks extremely young. Ken - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: M Robards Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 2:02 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 Markers P109 was Re: A pitch for the 68-111 STRmarkers Ken, I have been putting off upgrading my dad's Y 67 out to 111. I kept finding other ways to spend the money I already don't have, mainly FF tests for several of my own family. If you could take a look at the Y STR chart for the 'Dennis' group in the SPRINGER project, we have quite a few participants in this group. Reason being we were trying to ID family lines, and we did to a small degree. I have put a matching non-Springer in the chart just so you can compare, they have gone out to 111 and are also P109. There is no FF match between 182783 and the only other 2 in this group who have done the FF. I'm only mentioning this as a minor detail. So do you mean that you are finding sub-clades in I1 by comparing these 111 upgrades. If I were to upgrade my dad 24291 to 111 from 67, with only two in this group then up to 111, would that show anything? If they don't match 100% in this panel, or do, I don't see how that would tell me anything, without getting at least one each from each of the family groups within this group. There is no way I can upgrade any of the others in the group, and no one else really shows an interest. And since 182783's paper trail indicates a different origin, I'm trying to find the justification to spend the money :( SS only goes so far, but I feel if I don't do this, no one else will either. I just need something to push me over the edge. melissa springer robards On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: snip > Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 > haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I. And then I use > that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. > So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your > information will not go to waste. And it would help if you suggested to > FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its > restrictions on purchase. > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt snip ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message