Terry, I'm certainly not criticizing your sincerity or generosity. I take it as a given that we are all sincere - and obviously working hard to help others, without thought of compensation. I suspect I'm not understanding the function of the tool. And I guess I reacted negatively because I wouldn't want one of my project members to see it, then think they needed to be SNP tested, when other family members have already been exhaustively tested. If someone (e.g., an adoptee or NPE) has a significant Y-DNA STR match with one of my project members, I will get an email notification from FTDNA, and they will show up as a match on the "Matches" tab of my members' pages, at which point I contact them. In all probability, I will ask them to join my project, regardless of their surname. IOW, once there's a match, they don't need to seek me out, I will seek them out. I guess I'm having trouble putting myself in the shoes of someone without a project admin to help them and who is that much "at a loss" at where to begin. I mean, STRAUB is a German name, and my great-grandfather spoke German. The question was never where our origin in Europe was, it was only where in Germany it was. But, yes, I realize not everyone starts with that amount of information. There's obviously more than one way to look at this. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:35 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only > for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > Diana, > Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of the > tool. > > Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and where > your > project members originate from, and the various SNP that they might > carry. > That is great. > > With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as input > the > 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool gives > some > facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In the > example > you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would > probably have > Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns out), > and it > also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your > example), and > that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, > your > example is in the 20% minority). > > And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is full > of > people with the same surname - information that the tool did not > use. If > the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family history, > and was > not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have > found that > other surname. > > So the tool got things right for your particular example - perhaps > your > knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for > *anyone*, > provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited to > many I1 > and I2 people at present) to create the tree. > > Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an honest > and > sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to all I1 > and I2 > people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing for > R1b and > R1a people? > > Terry > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen > <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > > > Hello Terry, > > > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems > here. > > > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB > #23492 > > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit number, > you > > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the same > > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR > marker > > levels (107/111 or better): > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been exhaustively > SNP > > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. Unless > a > > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for any > of > > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any > reason > > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see how > this > > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to > take > > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family been > SNP > > tested, and what were their results?" > > > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to > test, > > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one of > the > > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to > > > their > > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or > close > > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67- > marker > > > STR > > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of > > > organising > > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > > systematically > > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch > Code". > > > This > > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry > System" > > > used in > > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently > only > > > works for > > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get > your > > > Branch > > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame > for > > > the > > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch > Code > > > in all > > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your > > > likely path > > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I > > > used, and > > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed > tree > > > showing > > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 > are > > > connected. > > > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA- > HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Diana, There are people out there who have paper-trails and know their ancestry and place of origin, and they have done all relevant SNP tests, and they have identified all their close STR marker matches. All the tool can do for such people is hopefully confirm what they already know. But there is another group of people who don't have such information. Those people surely would appreciate the output from the free tool I provided. In the last few hours since posting I have received private emails confirming to me the utility of the tool in such situations. In contrast, I found your earlier, and public, comments unnecessarily harsh and discouraging and now contrary to what others are seeing. If you can't see the utility for others, then fine. Terry On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Diana Matthiesen <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > Terry, > > I'm certainly not criticizing your sincerity or generosity. I take it > as a given that we are all sincere - and obviously working hard to > help others, without thought of compensation. > > I suspect I'm not understanding the function of the tool. And I guess > I reacted negatively because I wouldn't want one of my project members > to see it, then think they needed to be SNP tested, when other family > members have already been exhaustively tested. > > If someone (e.g., an adoptee or NPE) has a significant Y-DNA STR match > with one of my project members, I will get an email notification from > FTDNA, and they will show up as a match on the "Matches" tab of my > members' pages, at which point I contact them. In all probability, I > will ask them to join my project, regardless of their surname. IOW, > once there's a match, they don't need to seek me out, I will seek them > out. > > I guess I'm having trouble putting myself in the shoes of someone > without a project admin to help them and who is that much "at a loss" > at where to begin. I mean, STRAUB is a German name, and my > great-grandfather spoke German. The question was never where our > origin in Europe was, it was only where in Germany it was. > > But, yes, I realize not everyone starts with that amount of > information. There's obviously more than one way to look at this. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:35 AM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only > > for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > > > Diana, > > Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of the > > tool. > > > > Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and where > > your > > project members originate from, and the various SNP that they might > > carry. > > That is great. > > > > With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as input > > the > > 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool gives > > some > > facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In the > > example > > you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would > > probably have > > Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns out), > > and it > > also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your > > example), and > > that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, > > your > > example is in the 20% minority). > > > > And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is full > > of > > people with the same surname - information that the tool did not > > use. If > > the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family history, > > and was > > not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have > > found that > > other surname. > > > > So the tool got things right for your particular example - perhaps > > your > > knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for > > *anyone*, > > provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited to > > many I1 > > and I2 people at present) to create the tree. > > > > Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an honest > > and > > sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to all I1 > > and I2 > > people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing for > > R1b and > > R1a people? > > > > Terry > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen > > <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > > > > > Hello Terry, > > > > > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems > > here. > > > > > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB > > #23492 > > > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit number, > > you > > > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > > > > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the same > > > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR > > marker > > > levels (107/111 or better): > > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > > > > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been exhaustively > > SNP > > > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. Unless > > a > > > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for any > > of > > > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any > > reason > > > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > > > > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see how > > this > > > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to > > take > > > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family been > > SNP > > > tested, and what were their results?" > > > > > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to > > test, > > > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one of > > the > > > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to > > > > their > > > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or > > close > > > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67- > > marker > > > > STR > > > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of > > > > organising > > > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > > > systematically > > > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch > > Code". > > > > This > > > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry > > System" > > > > used in > > > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > > > > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently > > only > > > > works for > > > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get > > your > > > > Branch > > > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame > > for > > > > the > > > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch > > Code > > > > in all > > > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your > > > > likely path > > > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I > > > > used, and > > > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed > > tree > > > > showing > > > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 > > are > > > > connected. > > > > > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA- > > HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >