Over the past 7 or so years I1xL22 was found to consist of a number of very robust clades. The numbering of these clades approximately runs in order of there time of discovery and size (large population clades are most often easier to find than small ones, and at least they better catch one’s attention, hence were found earliest). The relatively recent addition of the Z series of snps in I1xL22 turns out to well separate these onto separate branches of the y tree, revealing the time ordering of their separation nodes. Here’s the snp tagging for these main clades. AS1: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 AS2: Z58 to Z138/Z139 AS3: Z58 to Z59 to Z382 AS4: ancestral for all Z series snps AS5: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 AS6: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 (AS5 and AS6 are part of a larger complex with indicated snp tags) AS7e: ancestral for all Z series snps AS8: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 (same as AS1) AS9: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 (part of larger complex along with AS16) AS10: Z58 to Z138/Z139 T2: Z63 P: ancestral for all Z series snps ML: ancestral for all Z series snps See “tree for I1” pdf file at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net for a partially time quantified tree for I1 which visualizes the above table. There is a continuous spectrum of smaller and smaller population clusters found, most with no assigned nicknames. The new snps most of the time do not split the historically discovered clades; they tag whole tags instead. I consider that an interesting feature of the tree, but it probably has a probability-based explanation. But I1xL22 still consists of 30 to 40 percent haplotypes which could not be assigned to a clade. These I1-ASgeneric haplotypes are showing up on most all the branch lines established by the new snps. The extreme downstream L338+ category seems an interesting exception. I know of no L338+ haplotype which most folks would have labeled outside of or an extreme outlier of AS1 or AS8. I view the large population of generics as sort of like peach fuzz (or fiber fuzz on old time sailors’ manila ropes) on the main branches of the y tree which lead to the higher population clades. The open question is whether the Z snp tagging of the I1-ASgeneric haplotypes will eventually lead to detecting commonalities in their haplotypes as well? I think this will happen to some extent when the haplotypes are expanded to 111 markers as well. The emergence of the tagged clade I1-ESc-13 is a case in point. Some similarities of a bunch of haplotypes were evident for a good number of years based on 67 markers, and my personal haplotype was in that bunch, so it had received my own excessive attention. But through those years I could not justify considering them a clade based on that evidence alone because of certain weaknesses of the similarities --- until a number of the haplotypes in that bunch expanded to 111 markers. Then the picture of descent from a slightly recent common ancestor became pretty clear. The Z series snp testing on the bunch was then the tasty chocolate frosting on the cake --- they are all turning out on a low-population branch of the haplogroup tree created by the Z snps --- that branch line which also leads to AS2 in the above table. The combination of 111 markers and the Z snps will now allow establishing the outer limits of this Scot-centered clade. Ken

Ken, If not the AS4 and AS7E subclades, we could say that the prefix AS is an equivalent of Z58+. Best, Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:56 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z snps well split I1xL22 major clades Over the past 7 or so years I1xL22 was found to consist of a number of very robust clades. The numbering of these clades approximately runs in order of there time of discovery and size (large population clades are most often easier to find than small ones, and at least they better catch one’s attention, hence were found earliest). The relatively recent addition of the Z series of snps in I1xL22 turns out to well separate these onto separate branches of the y tree, revealing the time ordering of their separation nodes. Here’s the snp tagging for these main clades. AS1: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 AS2: Z58 to Z138/Z139 AS3: Z58 to Z59 to Z382 AS4: ancestral for all Z series snps AS5: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 AS6: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 (AS5 and AS6 are part of a larger complex with indicated snp tags) AS7e: ancestral for all Z series snps AS8: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 (same as AS1) AS9: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 (part of larger complex along with AS16) AS10: Z58 to Z138/Z139 T2: Z63 P: ancestral for all Z series snps ML: ancestral for all Z series snps See “tree for I1” pdf file at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net for a partially time quantified tree for I1 which visualizes the above table. There is a continuous spectrum of smaller and smaller population clusters found, most with no assigned nicknames. The new snps most of the time do not split the historically discovered clades; they tag whole tags instead. I consider that an interesting feature of the tree, but it probably has a probability-based explanation. But I1xL22 still consists of 30 to 40 percent haplotypes which could not be assigned to a clade. These I1-ASgeneric haplotypes are showing up on most all the branch lines established by the new snps. The extreme downstream L338+ category seems an interesting exception. I know of no L338+ haplotype which most folks would have labeled outside of or an extreme outlier of AS1 or AS8. I view the large population of generics as sort of like peach fuzz (or fiber fuzz on old time sailors’ manila ropes) on the main branches of the y tree which lead to the higher population clades. The open question is whether the Z snp tagging of the I1-ASgeneric haplotypes will eventually lead to detecting commonalities in their haplotypes as well? I think this will happen to some extent when the haplotypes are expanded to 111 markers as well. The emergence of the tagged clade I1-ESc-13 is a case in point. Some similarities of a bunch of haplotypes were evident for a good number of years based on 67 markers, and my personal haplotype was in that bunch, so it had received my own excessive attention. But through those years I could not justify considering them a clade based on that evidence alone because of certain weaknesses of the similarities --- until a number of the haplotypes in that bunch expanded to 111 markers. Then the picture of descent from a slightly recent common ancestor became pretty clear. The Z series snp testing on the bunch was then the tasty chocolate frosting on the cake --- they are all turning out on a low-population branch of the haplogro! up tree created by the Z snps --- that branch line which also leads to AS2 in the above table. The combination of 111 markers and the Z snps will now allow establishing the outer limits of this Scot-centered clade. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4863 - Release Date: 03/10/12

You seem constitutionally unable or unwilling to recognize that branch lines defined by SNPs are indeed clades. So I am in the clade defined by Z138/Z139, as I think any evolutionary biologist would agree. If you want to consider me some sort of generic fuzz, I guess that's your prerogative. On 3/11/2012 8:55 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > Over the past 7 or so years I1xL22 was found to consist of a number of very robust clades. The numbering of these clades approximately runs in order of there time of discovery and size (large population clades are most often easier to find than small ones, and at least they better catch one’s attention, hence were found earliest). The relatively recent addition of the Z series of snps in I1xL22 turns out to well separate these onto separate branches of the y tree, revealing the time ordering of their separation nodes. Here’s the snp tagging for these main clades. > > AS1: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 > AS2: Z58 to Z138/Z139 > AS3: Z58 to Z59 to Z382 > AS4: ancestral for all Z series snps > AS5: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 > AS6: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 (AS5 and AS6 are part of a larger complex with indicated snp tags) > AS7e: ancestral for all Z series snps > AS8: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 (same as AS1) > AS9: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 (part of larger complex along with AS16) > AS10: Z58 to Z138/Z139 > T2: Z63 > P: ancestral for all Z series snps > ML: ancestral for all Z series snps > > See “tree for I1” pdf file at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net for a partially time quantified tree for I1 which visualizes the above table. > > There is a continuous spectrum of smaller and smaller population clusters found, most with no assigned nicknames. > > The new snps most of the time do not split the historically discovered clades; they tag whole tags instead. I consider that an interesting feature of the tree, but it probably has a probability-based explanation. > > But I1xL22 still consists of 30 to 40 percent haplotypes which could not be assigned to a clade. These I1-ASgeneric haplotypes are showing up on most all the branch lines established by the new snps. The extreme downstream L338+ category seems an interesting exception. I know of no L338+ haplotype which most folks would have labeled outside of or an extreme outlier of AS1 or AS8. I view the large population of generics as sort of like peach fuzz (or fiber fuzz on old time sailors’ manila ropes) on the main branches of the y tree which lead to the higher population clades. > > The open question is whether the Z snp tagging of the I1-ASgeneric haplotypes will eventually lead to detecting commonalities in their haplotypes as well? I think this will happen to some extent when the haplotypes are expanded to 111 markers as well. The emergence of the tagged clade I1-ESc-13 is a case in point. Some similarities of a bunch of haplotypes were evident for a good number of years based on 67 markers, and my personal haplotype was in that bunch, so it had received my own excessive attention. But through those years I could not justify considering them a clade based on that evidence alone because of certain weaknesses of the similarities --- until a number of the haplotypes in that bunch expanded to 111 markers. Then the picture of descent from a slightly recent common ancestor became pretty clear. The Z series snp testing on the bunch was then the tasty chocolate frosting on the cake --- they are all turning out on a low-population branch of the haplog! roup tree created by the Z snps --- that branch line which also leads to AS2 in the above table. The combination of 111 markers and the Z snps will now allow establishing the outer limits of this Scot-centered clade. > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[[ Kindly go to hell. Where did that absurd charge come from? Haplogroups are specific (special to some but not all) kinds of clades in terms of their identification method; I have probably stated that more times through the years than either of our ages. So kindly keep your technical objections separate from your assertions about personalities, especially when the latter require your powers of mind reading which may not work too well? Yes, you are in the haplogroup (clade) tagged by Z138/Z139. But there are clades found over the past 7 years in I1xL22 before the snps were around and other alternative identifications were required, among them AS2 identified probably in early 2005 and probably representing a large fraction of Z138/Z139 clade. And there continue to be clades tagged by various types of observations. Every node in the y tree represents a distinct clade, technically or formally speaking. If you don't want to envision the tree downstream of Z138/Z139 as consisting of branch lines here and there leading to very demographically robust clades, and as well a large number of demographically modest branches (the fuzz), I guess that's your prerogative. KN ]] -----Original Message----- From: Obed W Odom Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:47 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Z snps well split I1xL22 major clades You seem constitutionally unable or unwilling to recognize that branch lines defined by SNPs are indeed clades. So I am in the clade defined by Z138/Z139, as I think any evolutionary biologist would agree. If you want to consider me some sort of generic fuzz, I guess that's your prerogative.