Hi Ken and all ~ While you may already be aware, one of my close 67 STR matches pointed out to me that one of the members of the AS9b (AS16) Project (to which I/we belong) is reporting derived (+) for Z58, Z59, and Z140. There are 2 other members (including myself) who are derived (+) for Z58, Z59, BUT ancestral (-) for Z140. Also, there is one member Z58+ and Z140- (not having tested Z59). Kit Z58 Z59 Z140 25496 + + + 121192 + - 154151 + + - 181479 + + - I'm confused by the STR vis à vi SNP usage to group results. Is this an apples versus oranges division? Or, is the AS9b (AS16) group about to split apart forming new groups? Also I want to give my thanks for your work here shedding light on HG I. We HG I folks are fortunate in sharing your HG. Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

-----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven While you may already be aware, one of my close 67 STR matches pointed out to me that one of the members of the AS9b (AS16) Project (to which I/we belong) is reporting derived (+) for Z58, Z59, and Z140. There are 2 other members (including myself) who are derived (+) for Z58, Z59, BUT ancestral (-) for Z140. Also, there is one member Z58+ and Z140- (not having tested Z59). Kit Z58 Z59 Z140 25496 + + + 121192 + - 154151 + + - 181479 + + - I'm confused by the STR vis à vi SNP usage to group results. Is this an apples versus oranges division? Or, is the AS9b (AS16) group about to split apart forming new groups? There are more DYS19 = 16 haplotypes in I1 than the subset of them also having other unique STR values and forming AS16. But you three with 111 markers --- you, Suomela, Aurdal of Norway --- are related relatively recently. Those being Z59+ but Z140- should definitely test Z60. Z60 splits people into two branches. Also, those with DYS19 = 16 and believe they are in AS16 should do the 68-111 panel to see if they share your unique STR values in that package. Clades are a broader category than snp-tagged haplogroups. Clades can also be identified by unusually robust populations of close haplotypes sharing the same unusual set of STR values.