6 of the 9 STRs mentioned below as tagging the Great Divide in M223+ are purchasable as singletons for a few dollars at FTDNA, including DYS717. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:02 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] M223+ Great Divide The 68-111 markers produce a Great Divide in the M223+ sector of the I-Tree. I touched on this yesterday, but only now explored the full extent of it. It reflects the earliest breakup of the M223+ tree which occurred perhaps 7000 or 8000 years ago and most likely in Central Europe on the middle Danube basin? I will call the two parts of M223+ “A” and “B” Below are STRs which systematically differ on the two sides of the Divide. We might call this the “717 Divide”! A B DYS717 16 19 DYS513 12-13 11 DYS504 14 15+ DYS497 15 14 DYS485 13 14 DYS505 12 11 DYS437 14 15 DYS446 11 10- DYS487 12 13 In Group A are clades: L801+, P95+, L623+ In Group B are clades: M284+, Roots, P78+, M223-X I would put L623+ and M223-X closest to the “borderlands” of this Divide if one had to do so. But the shift of modalities on so many modest mutation rate markers indicates to me a very long interval of intervening tree branch line segments between the Groups. There is something of a geographical split between Group A and Group B I believe, but it is subtle, and I will outline what I see in a later message. So now we have this Z186 snp being tested. Unfortunately most of the orders and close to all of the reported Z186+ results have been for L801+ haplotypes, so we are piling up lots of redundant information. I believe the focus of further Z186 testing should be on the borderlands between Group A and Group B in order to see how this snp falls relative to the divide. This means that L623+ and M223-X haplotypes should be tested, and any L801+ haplotypes which look like haplotype outliers or find their DYS532 value deviating up from the norm of 9 should test for Z186. What we want now is to see if there are any L801- Z186+; the alternative L801+ Z186+ seem now to be much less likely. We can say right now that roughly Z186 will be derived in Group A and ancestral in Group B --- but where is the dividing line for this snp? If one compares the above 9 STRs with their modalities in L38+ haplogroup, nearest neighbor to M223+, eight of the 9 STR modalities in L38+ go with Group B which certainly looks to be the older of A and B.