Thank you, Ken. You have given us a detailed guide to follow through our I1 projects. John M Rhodes Sent from my iPhone On Mar 11, 2012, at 9:55 AM, "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > Over the past 7 or so years I1xL22 was found to consist of a number of very robust clades. The numbering of these clades approximately runs in order of there time of discovery and size (large population clades are most often easier to find than small ones, and at least they better catch one’s attention, hence were found earliest). The relatively recent addition of the Z series of snps in I1xL22 turns out to well separate these onto separate branches of the y tree, revealing the time ordering of their separation nodes. Here’s the snp tagging for these main clades. > > AS1: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 > AS2: Z58 to Z138/Z139 > AS3: Z58 to Z59 to Z382 > AS4: ancestral for all Z series snps > AS5: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 > AS6: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 (AS5 and AS6 are part of a larger complex with indicated snp tags) > AS7e: ancestral for all Z series snps > AS8: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 to Z140 to L338 (same as AS1) > AS9: Z58 to Z59 to Z60 (part of larger complex along with AS16) > AS10: Z58 to Z138/Z139 > T2: Z63 > P: ancestral for all Z series snps > ML: ancestral for all Z series snps > > See “tree for I1” pdf file at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net for a partially time quantified tree for I1 which visualizes the above table. > > There is a continuous spectrum of smaller and smaller population clusters found, most with no assigned nicknames. > > The new snps most of the time do not split the historically discovered clades; they tag whole tags instead. I consider that an interesting feature of the tree, but it probably has a probability-based explanation. > > But I1xL22 still consists of 30 to 40 percent haplotypes which could not be assigned to a clade. These I1-ASgeneric haplotypes are showing up on most all the branch lines established by the new snps. The extreme downstream L338+ category seems an interesting exception. I know of no L338+ haplotype which most folks would have labeled outside of or an extreme outlier of AS1 or AS8. I view the large population of generics as sort of like peach fuzz (or fiber fuzz on old time sailors’ manila ropes) on the main branches of the y tree which lead to the higher population clades. > > The open question is whether the Z snp tagging of the I1-ASgeneric haplotypes will eventually lead to detecting commonalities in their haplotypes as well? I think this will happen to some extent when the haplotypes are expanded to 111 markers as well. The emergence of the tagged clade I1-ESc-13 is a case in point. Some similarities of a bunch of haplotypes were evident for a good number of years based on 67 markers, and my personal haplotype was in that bunch, so it had received my own excessive attention. But through those years I could not justify considering them a clade based on that evidence alone because of certain weaknesses of the similarities --- until a number of the haplotypes in that bunch expanded to 111 markers. Then the picture of descent from a slightly recent common ancestor became pretty clear. The Z series snp testing on the bunch was then the tasty chocolate frosting on the cake --- they are all turning out on a low-population branch of the haplog! roup tree created by the Z snps --- that branch line which also leads to AS2 in the above table. The combination of 111 markers and the Z snps will now allow establishing the outer limits of this Scot-centered clade. > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message