SNP's are useful to tag populations. The info coming from the 1000 Genome Project volunteers was that Z186 was downstream from L801: http://bit.ly/M223Z186 . So volunteers from each L801+ subgroup (some subgroups have only one volunteer representing each) ordered the test. Naturally, when you ask for volunteers, larger groups tend to have more than one.  We don't yet know what division (if any) Z186 will create. But it could split a current subgroup in the middle like L812 did to Roots Group 1/446 = 8. SNP's regroup haplotypes all the time (sometimes uniting groups that differ STR-wise and dividing groups that look similar on the surface). And for all I know, a piece of Cont 1 could still break off from the Z186+ continentals... One never knows. It's always safer to test than to guess. I did request that L801- Continentals (Cont3a, Cont2c) test for Z186. I got one volunteer from Cont3a, none from Cont2c yet. I am thankful to all the volunteers who promptly order the SNP tests so we can rely on actual results rather than assumptions. Additionally, I always suggest to my project members that before they spend time hunting down what could be a ghost MRCA, that they first make sure they have the same terminal SNP as their match. In order to do that, both need to test. This approach tends to be much more productive than frustrating people out of genetic genealogy after are unable to materialize a ghost MRCA. Aaron Torres From: Haakon Styri <styri@online.no> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Testing Bandwagons Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:59:47 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <3F7E3CF1902241D8BC8B0CE3A3B1AEDF@kenPC> Ken, The challenge is herding a large group of people, and if you look at the Y-DNA chart every haplotype group headline is marked with the SNPs that are assumed positive and the text " tests recommended". In plain words, the instructions suggest testing to confirm the teories. To be somewhat blunt, it's not a scientific approach. The problem is that most people simply do as they're told. We know (or at least assume) that you and the project administrators have done an excellent job. Maybe a better apporoach is to challenge us tp prove you wrong. ;-) At least, the value of testing negative must be made clear enough tp encourage a better testing approach. H.Styri > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [knordtvedt@bresnan.net] > Sent: 2012-03-10 18:20:28 MET > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Testing Bandwagons > > SNPs are mainly useful for dividing populations, although sometimes they can to a degree unite haplotypes which otherwise show little affinity for each other. > > Today we had a flood of L801+ who all tested Z186 and all were derived for this new snp as well. I have not yet plowed through the order records, but I hope there are some L801- who are testing for Z186. No such test results were reported out today. > > There are many different clades of M223+ L801- Continental. There is no necessary reason the borderline between L801 derived and ancestrals will coincide with the borderline between Z186 derived and ancestral --- although they could. > > So rather than do tests on new snps in a bandwagon manner, the new snp should be investigated from ?both sides? of the divide --- so to speak. > > If you are in an odd clade or cluster of M223+ Continental it will be more informative for us if you test for Z186 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message