KEN: This genealogy versus ancient clade dicotomy is beginning to get overblown as more extended haplotypes and more snps allow us to push the establishment of "ancient clades" closer to the present. This came home to roost in my personal case. I have been staring unproductively at my extended haplotype for over 8 years, and it has been truly an outlier, especially in Norway where it has been for last 250 years for sure until coming to America. Finally with extension to 111 markers and the further evidence available from a couple new snps, I could put my haplotype into a surprisingly robust clade centered in Scotland (instead of Norway) --- clade age not much over 1000 years. Is that genealogy or ancient clade history? ***************************************** It's genealogy to me, but then I was excited five years ago when you first told me my family was AS7E and that AS7E's MRCA probably lived about 1500 years ago. At that point, I believe AS7E had the most recent of all I1 subgroup MRCA's. What a difference six months can make when the pace of research quickens--now there are several even younger subgroups including yours. My view on this question has always been that yes, my interest is genealogy, but not if genealogy is narrowly defined as the period which begins with parish registration in England. For me, the genealogical period is whatever I can trace by whatever means with reasonable accuracy, and I have always hoped that with the addition of genetic testing this might eventually include the historical period for at least some lucky families and/or some determined researchers. Thank you for the personal example. It'll make good ammunition for my next e-mail. In fact, I think a list of all subgroups with MRCA's who lived c 1000AD would also be in order. I keep telling my subgroup that this latest research is gradually leading us forward in time to the genealogical period, but perhaps a few examples would speak even more eloquently. I have one response so far to the e-mail I sent earlier today (which included your pitch for Y-111) and she says she's willing to upgrade to Y-111. Lindsey