Until such time as we have something akin to full y chromosome snp tests over a clearly defined, fixed, set of nucleotide sites, extended haplotypes with as many STRs as possible provide us with the best clocks for adding the time dimension to the y tree. The 68-111 panel of STRs adds approximately 0.1 to the total mutation rate of haplotype STRs (that roughly means that every 10 generations on average on a line of descent, there will be a mutation within the 68-111 panel, itself). I decided the time has arrived to expand the Generations software to include the 68-111 panel of STRs for doing variance-based tmrca estimates; this should be done in the near future (after income tax forms are done and out of the way). *********************************** I will forward your pitch to my group, along with a few comments of my own. Although all or most AS7E's are interested mainly in genealogy, the fact that our MRCA was relatively recent should make an upgrade more appealing. I keep thinking (or hoping) that if we can just collect more genealogical information on individual families, while refining TMRCA estimates for the group and developing a clearer idea about relationships and distances within the group, that we might eventually reach conclusions of value to all AS7E's. Lindsey

This genealogy versus ancient clade dicotomy is beginning to get overblown as more extended haplotypes and more snps allow us to push the establishment of "ancient clades" closer to the present. This came home to roost in my personal case. I have been staring unproductively at my extended haplotype for over 8 years, and it has been truly an outlier, especially in Norway where it has been for last 250 years for sure until coming to America. Finally with extension to 111 markers and the further evidence available from a couple new snps, I could put my haplotype into a surprisingly robust clade centered in Scotland (instead of Norway) --- clade age not much over 1000 years. Is that genealogy or ancient clade history? - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Lplantagenet Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:08 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] A pitch for the 68-111 STR markers Until such time as we have something akin to full y chromosome snp tests over a clearly defined, fixed, set of nucleotide sites, extended haplotypes with as many STRs as possible provide us with the best clocks for adding the time dimension to the y tree. The 68-111 panel of STRs adds approximately 0.1 to the total mutation rate of haplotype STRs (that roughly means that every 10 generations on average on a line of descent, there will be a mutation within the 68-111 panel, itself). I decided the time has arrived to expand the Generations software to include the 68-111 panel of STRs for doing variance-based tmrca estimates; this should be done in the near future (after income tax forms are done and out of the way). *********************************** I will forward your pitch to my group, along with a few comments of my own. Although all or most AS7E's are interested mainly in genealogy, the fact that our MRCA was relatively recent should make an upgrade more appealing. I keep thinking (or hoping) that if we can just collect more genealogical information on individual families, while refining TMRCA estimates for the group and developing a clearer idea about relationships and distances within the group, that we might eventually reach conclusions of value to all AS7E's. Lindsey ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message