It was a typo: Ken: And I made a @#$%% typo. Motala2 is M253- of course. > Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 08:14:38 +1000 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Update on Ancient I in Europe > > Kenneth, > > That is very interesting. > > Could you confirm however that Motala2 was M253+ as you said or if this was > a typo and he is M253-. > > Thanks > > > On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Here’s an update on what has recently been learned about haplogroup I ydna > > in ancient Europe. Bones of several males from 8000 b.p. were examined for > > their dna: Loschbour was from a Luxuemberg site, four male dna Motala > > 2,3,9,12 > > were from a Swedish site. Another male from Swedish site, Motala6, seems > > not to be confirmed haplogroup I, but his true haplogroup is still > > unidentified though thought Q for awhile. Their ydna analysis of these > > ancient males is discussed in depth in the paper “Ancient human genomes > > suggest three ancestral populations for presentday Europeans”. > > > > As of a month ago, the hobby community had collected a number of > > phyloequivalent ysnps to M423, mainly from Geno2: the full list is M423, > > L178, L1224, CTS8486, CTS8239, CTS7218, CTS5985, CTS5375, CTS1802, CTS176, > > CTS1293, CTS11030. > > Multiple customers of Geno2 chip or WTY and from the L161 “Isles” clades > > or from the L621 “Dinaric” clade were found derived for ALL of these 12 > > ysnps. Everyone else in haplogroup I was found ancestral for All of them. > > > > In the cited paper, however, only L178 and M423 were tested on these > > ancient dna samples. They took their snps to test from ISOGG list, and as > > we know that list always lags present knowledge because of the procedure of > > inclusion into their list. The ancient dna samples are not necessarily > > readable on any given snp site, so it is important to have that ancient dna > > tested on alternative sites of equivalence if unreadable on any particular > > site. So I sent the 10 snp sites listed above for which they did not test > > to authors of the cited paper. They very kindly looked up the allele > > values for the additional snps which could be read. > > > > Loschbour was readable for all 12 snps with results: derived for CTS8239, > > CTS7218, CTS5985, CTS176, CTS1293, L178, M423, but ancestral for the other > > five snps including L1224. > > > > Motala12 was readable for 9 of the 12 snps with results which exactly > > matched Loschbour. Unreadable snps were CTS8239, L1224, M423. > > > > Motala3 was readable for only 3 of the 12 snps with results matching > > Loschbour: CTS7218+, CTS176+, CTS1293+ > > > > Motala2 was readable for only 1 of the 12 snps and disagreed with first > > three dna samples, being CTS1293- > > > > Motala9 was not readable for any of the 12 snps. > > > > Loschbour and Motala12 (and probably Motala3) establish a new branch line > > of the I Tree which is today probably extinct or severely tiny in present > > population. It splits the 12 snps into ancestrals and deriveds. See > > “Tree and Map for haplogroup I” for position of this new branch of the > > tree. > > > > So we concentrate on what we might further learn about Motala2 and Motala9 > > samples using the rich catalog of well placed ysnps that has resulted from > > Geno2 and other products done by hobbyists. > > > > All we know about Motala9 is that he is P38+ but P40-. All we know about > > Motala2 is that he is P38+ M253+ Z79- L703- L37- L621-. So both are > > haplogroup I, but that’s about all we know. > > Motala9 could be most anything within haplogroup I except a modern I1. He > > could be anything in I2...... and could be a new ancient branch on the > > ancestral I1 line which branched off prior to P40. That’s a time range of > > 22,000 years b.p. up to about 4500 years b.p. Similarly Motala2 could have > > branched off of the ancestral I1 line anytime before M253, and Motala still > > has much of I2...... for his location. > > > > So there is much work that authors of this paper can do using our Geno2 > > generated rich lists of phylogenetically equivalent snps for many of the > > key branch segments of the I tree. Motala2 and Motala9 could conceivably > > be placed fairly well in the haplogroup I tree, giving us much better > > incite into presence of our haplogroup in northern Europe 8000 years ago. > > I have sent several sets of the confirmed phylogenetically equivalent snp > > lists to them and hopefully they will see if they are readable for Motala2 > > and Motala9. > > > > What I have not put together yet, waiting to see if they will use it or > > that Motala2 and Motala9 are not confirmed to be part of I2....., is the > > very huge list of firmly confirmed phyloequivalent snps to M253 and P40 (I1 > > snps). Since that branch line segment is so long, 22000 years ago up to > > 4500 years ago, the list of well confirmed equivalent snps is probably > > presently approaching 100 in number. If Motala2 or Motala9 are confirmed > > I2..... then no sense checking them on all those I1 snps. > > > > So there could be much more of value to be extracted from these ancient > > dna samples from a complete use of their full genome measurements plus the > > hobby community’s most up to date list of well confirmed and well placed > > ysnps. > > I hope they will continue to work with us as they did on the initial set > > of ysnps equivalent to M423 and L178 which produced such informative > > results. > > > > Footnote: If Motala6 is indeed not confirmed haplogroup Q as the cited > > paper concluded, then a complete list of phylogenetically equivalent snps > > to P38 should probably be tested to see if he is haplogroup I or not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message