Circone 98520 is DYF406S1=10: 98520 Circone Italy Italy I2b1c 14 23 15 10 15-15 11 13 12 13 12 31 17 8-9 11 11 24 14 20 27 14-14-15-16 12 9 19-21 16 15 18 19 35-35 12 10 11 8 15-15 8 11 10 8 10 9 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P78+ Cont-3 should get 111 markers 406=10 Novak Dubnany Schlactmeier (Ger) Gaezza (Naples It) Jakovlev (Rus) Russell Kara Murza 174263 (Arm) Giraco (Tk Arm) Kiriakos Di Buono (It) Jackson McCally Miranda McAnally Horsman Sandell (Sw?) 406=12 Butler 102316 Martin Fowler 288279 Mullinax Grimaldi Bloch Szczodrowski Chabanian 169454 (Arm) Budarik (Sorbian) Smolenyak Myers Wujciga Fischer 192817 MacDougall Embody Olson Rose Brewer 44994 Ei968 Hermans (Neth) Weliver Butler andrews Germain (Germany) Truax Clist (SW Eng Wales?) Duguay (France) Ritscher (Austria, Dresden?) Mlady Czech 406=11 Vanzant Rockel YCC61 (Ger) N87122 Fanoy (France) Galui (Roma Italy) Waite Long 48610 Torkington Kuch (Austria) Ballough (Hun) ?????? Bartlett 237946 Putnam Spalding Foster Essenmacher Alfred Joseph Sanchez Fults Bucher (Sz) Linville Knipp (Germany) Birkoben (Lithuania) Malinowski (Uk) Dreisbach Warren Kyle Stewart N86836 The above is a division of much of P78 based on DYS406 value. I am sorry my coloring does not come through. Each of those divisions, 10,11,12 for 406, is divided into many, many tiny clusters. There is no big clustering or obvious clades. P78 must have expanded robustly right from its founder. This mess repeats itself with the 68-111 panel of STRs which I am equipped to look at separately. What is missing in the above lists? The P78J clade which is actually the biggest and a definite subclade of P78 really separates nicely from rest of P78. Then I have a bunch of short P78 haplotypes which can't be associated with any clusters or by DYS406 values. Other than P78J, I am not comfortable with any further subclades in P78 unless you want to push use of "clade" to cover haplotype pairs, triplets, etc. One might want to look at 406 = 10, 11, and 12 populations to see if they differ statistically on geography? - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-" "Tree for I1 Z60+" "Tree for I1 L22+" "Tree for Isles L161" "Tree for L38" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6433+" "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6433" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" "The L161 Isles Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Scott E. Stewart Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P78+ Cont-3 should get 111 markers KN, I believe that Wayne invited all of the DYS385=13-16 P78s on your list below who aren't in the M223 Project to join and we now have Foster 43377. Now I can see your DYS385=13-16 P78 clade with the English-Welsh Bartlett 237946, Putnam 46684, and Foster 43377 and I can see what you mean about there not being many P78 clades. It's still not clear to me whether DYS385=13-16 P78 Linville N113686 or Essenmacher 194914 would be in this clade. 43377 Foster England 13 23 15 10 13-16 11 13 12 13 12 29 16 8-9 11 237946 Bartlett Wales 13 23 15 10 13-16 11 13 12 13 12 29 16 9-9 11 46684 Putnam England 13 23 15 10 13-16 11 13 13 13 12 29 16 8-9 11 Also, P78 Rockel from Lithuania joined the M223 Project recently and I was wondering whether you thought that he might be in a clade with maybe Winkler N97389, Grimaldi 256076, Garcia 154462, or Chabanian 169454? 302548 Rockel 15 23 15 10 16-17 11 13 11 14 12 29 15 8-10 11 11 24 14 20 28 N97389 Winkler 15 23 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 14 12 29 16 8-10 11 11 24 14 20 28 256076 Grimaldi 15 23 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 14 12 30 16 8-9 11 11 24 14 20 27 169454 Chabanian 13 23 15 10 16-16 11 13 12 13 11 29 16 8-10 11 11 24 15 20 31 154462 Garcia 15 24 15 10 16-16 11 13 11 14 12 30 18 8-10 11 11 24 14 20 28 Thanks for your thoughts, Scott -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 3:56 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P78+ Cont-3 should get 111 markers Bartlett 237946 Putnam Spalding Foster Essenmacher Alfred Joseph Sanchez Fults Bucher (Sz) Linville Here's one suggestion concerning P78+ The above surnames are for haplotypes in my P78+ collection with DYS385a = 13, a value which stands out in overall P78+ Only Putnam has 111 markers. Some of those have only 37 markers. Putnam has some unusual marker values in 68-111. If people don't want to buy whole new STR panels which would be best, they should especially buy DYS556, also DYS532 and DYS716. For those of the above who have only 37 markers and won't expand their haplotypes, do DYS511 which is unique for this cluster so far. I'll offer some other particularly interesting haplotype upgrades in P78+ in coming hours or days. I collect my haplotypes from hundreds of surname projects and regional projects and ancestry and smgf, but I did not make habit of keeping a tab of where I got each one. If you have a surname and it is not in M223 project for this clade, check the surname projects. But in general we need more expansions by everyone to 67 and 111 markers. And this is always useful information for the hobbyist unlike many snp test results which are so expected they tell one nothing new. You always learn more from expanding haplotypes. The Jewish clade in P78 has a few expansions to 111 markers but from people very close to each other. More diversity of 111 marker haplotypes among this mainly eastern Europe population is needed. The Jewish clade also has several very clear new identifiers amont the 68-111 markers: DYS513=10, DYS532=11, DYS525=12, DYS522=13, DYS495=16. This suggests the Jewish clade branched from P78+ early. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-" "Tree for I1 Z60+" "Tree for I1 L22+" "Tree for Isles L161" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6433+" "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6433" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" "The L161 Isles Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Scott E. Stewart Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 12:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P78+ Cont-3 should get 111 markers Dr. Nordtvedt, Please let us know if you're aware of P78+ Cont-3 people in other FTDNA Projects or otherwise out there who haven't joined the FTDNA I-M223+ Project so that we may ask them to join and further diversify I-M223+ the P78+ Cont-3 group in the FTDNA I-M223+ Project? Also, as you're looking P78+ at the haplotypes, if you see specific areas where we need to upgrade STR markers, please let us know the particular kit numbers or group so that we can make sure that we get additional STRs there? Thank you very much for all of your help with the P78+ Cont-3 haplotypes, Scott -----Original Message----- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message