> From: Matthew Simonds > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 12:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > Are all L22+ people also DF29+? Yes. One reason I've created this graphic haplotree: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_haplotree.html#tree is so my project members and others, including me, can - I hope - more easily see these relationships for themselves. If you check the above haplotree, you can see that L22 is downstream of DF29, which means everyone who is L22+ should be DF29+. DF29 came first; L22 came later. It's not as clear in the matrices because not everyone is testing their upstream SNPs, but the titles of the tables indicates the sequences of SNPs that are presumed to be positive for the individuals in the table: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_L22.html#L22-Part1 If you are positive for L22, you are presumed to also be positive for M253, DF29, CTS6354, and CTS10028 because these SNPs are all upstream of L22. As Ken said, there's only a remote possibility of a backmutation (e.g., DF29+ reverting back to DF29-), but the probability isn't zero (i.e., it's not impossible), which is one reason I believe in testing upstream SNPs. I might here introduce the concept of a "SNP Patrilineal Line." We're all accustomed to the idea of a patrilineal line in our paper genealogy - it's so important to what we are doing that I require one from my Y-DNA surname project members before they can join. Well, we also have a SNP patrilineal line: the series of SNP mutations that delineate our descent from a common ancestor. With regard to our paper patrilineal line, we eventually (hopefully) reach the earliest ancestor having a paper record, so can go no further. With regard to our SNP patrilineal line, we may arbitrarily decide to focus on our line from somewhere further "down the line" from our earliest ancestor, for example, using I1-M253 as a practical starting point, as in making it the basis for the M253+ SNP matrices, which are the basis of the I1-M253 SNP haplotree. Just as I'm not comfortable skipping a generation in a paper patrilineal line, I'm likewise not comfortable skipping a test in a SNP patrilineal line, so I will continue to substantiate my ancestors' SNP patrilineal lines with actual test results, not assumptions. Diana