> From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 2:35 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > P30, P40, M307, just like L1439 and any other PRESENTLY phyloequivalent snps > to M253 should not cease to be tested by the proven most upstream branches > of the I1 tree. I agree, in fact, I clearly advocate it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#M253* Why do you think I'm trying to drum up a BigY test for one of the root I1-M253* individuals? But those of us downstream of CTS6364, Z58, Z63, and Z131 (and the I2's) - who, for the benefit of all, jumped in and tested it - can now STOP doing so. > It's just the sad fact that they have not been, given that > the tests have been available in the catalog for some time. With Chromo2, > and even much more so if BigY works, we will be able to use the haplotypes > from the most upstream branches of I1 to peel off some of the presently > phyloequivalent snps of I1's M253, and maybe even M253 itself. And testing > of the most upstream branches is where it matters. > > Phyloequivalence as seen from who has tested in the past does not indicate > absolute or ultimate phyloequivalence. Many phyloequivalences have been > broken by focused testing; we should expect the same for the bunch of M253 > phyloequivalences. Yes, of course, we're all looking forward to what the "comprehensive" SNP tests will do with regard to separating SNPs that are currently treated as equivalent. > 1) I believe we have shown that the PF49+ population is downstream from > DF29, being found in clade I1-ML which is DF29+. It is true we have no > PF49 test yet for an AS2122 clade member; I'd love to see one. Yes, PF49 is apparently downstream of DF29, but it also appears parallel to CTS6364, Z58, and Z63. It's presumably L1439+, but not necessarily, so at least one of them needs to test it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > 2) I spelled out the population of DF29- Z131- earlier today. Two decent > clades, a cluster, plus some generics. The clades are seen in "Tree for > I1xZ58xL22" as AS1212 and AS121210 which are identified in "I1 modalities". > My database count is 37 haplotypes. I see your conclusions, but your "database" showing the 37 individuals isn't online. If the data aren't published, no one else can work with them. The only visible (published) data are at FTDNA and they show just five individuals who are DF29- and Z131-. We have a serious problem, here, if there isn't going to be a way for these "comprehensive" SNP results to be published and used by everyone. Several weeks ago I suggested - to the list and via an email to FTDNA - that we be given an additional column on the SNP Results tables at FTDNA where "User Entered SNP Results" could be displayed. We could manually enter *only the significant ones* from our comprehensive SNP testing via a form on our member page. Just a simple text field with a modest size limit (e.g., a few hundred characters) would be entirely adequate - and VERY easy to program. Diana > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:50 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > If L1439 turns out to be phyloequivalent to M253, we can stop testing it, > just > as we've stopped testing P30, P40, and its other equivalents. But as I show > in > the matrix, those who are DF29- and Z131- still need to test it (and PF49): > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#M253* > > It would be desirable for the those who are PF49+ to test it as well. > Though > they are presumably positive, it would be preferable to prove it: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > But I have to ask, what is this "large population" that is DF29- and Z131-? > I > see only a handful. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 11:28 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > > No; that would be a big mistake I believe. There is a very large > > population > > of DF29- Z131- people in the database. You have no idea whether they are > > L1439+ or L1439-. > > > > If you believe you do know what these DF29- Z131- people are for L1439, > > what > > is it and why? > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > > Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2014 9:14 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... > > > > L1439 appears to be phyloequivalent to M253, so we can stop testing it. > > The > > only clade left to seal the deal are the PF49+'s: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 > > > > If one of them tests positive for L1439, I can remove this SNP from the > > matrix, > > entirely. > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message

Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 1:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L1439 moves upstream but....... Yes, PF49 is apparently downstream of DF29, but it also appears parallel to CTS6364, Z58, and Z63. It's presumably L1439+, but not necessarily, so at least one of them needs to test it: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/matrices/HgI1/HgI1_matrix_M253.html#PF49 [[But L1439 was yesterday shown to be upstream of DF29. So anything downstream of DF29 will be L1439+ KN]] I see your conclusions, but your "database" showing the 37 individuals isn't online. If the data aren't published, no one else can work with them. The only visible (published) data are at FTDNA and they show just five individuals who are DF29- and Z131-. [[ Most of those 37 are in the clades AS12123 and AS1212110. People can look up in "I1 Modalities" to see if they are in those clades, or any other clades for that matter. KN]]