I would like just to inform you that we have done SNP tests , both Z63 and Z58, on Macura haplotype and it appears that Macura's are Z63+. It helps me a lot to understand its possible migration to Balkan, but it doesn't solve its connection with the Goths. Observing all clades of Z63: in Britain, Spain and continental Europe, I came to conclusion that Z63 cannot be connected with Goths but with some other continental Europe germanic people. There two candidates, equally interesting: Suebi or Suevi and Vandals. Angli were mentioned as part of Suevic tribal union, and it seems to me that Z63 is much more represented in parts of Britain settled with Angles. It is also represented in central and northern Germany where Suevic tribes lived. Even the part od Sweden known as Svealand (area around Stockholm) have Z63 haplotypes in contrast with southern Sweden which is Z63 empty (region from where supposedly Goths came from). Some scientist connects these Svealand region and tribe of Suiones with Suevi. Also Z63 could be found around region of Braga in northern Portugal and Spanish Galicia, where for long period existed Suevic kingdom. Z63 is also very common in region of central Poland where people of Vandals once lived. It is also region of Przeworsk archeological culture associated with Vandals. Vandals according to some historians came from nowadays Sweden from the area of Vendel, and it is the same region as Svealand around Stockholm and also the only region in Sweden with higher Z63. Vandals migrated together with Suevi to Spain, one of Vandals tribes Hasdingi were incorporated in Suevic kingdom. So, as we see, Z63 coincide very well both with the Vandali and Suevi, but it very little coincide with Goths. It is not presented in significant numbers in some regions settled with Goths: sothern Ukraine, Italy, southern France, Gotland in Sweden. Also it is presented in Britain where goths never lived. Probably some Goths absorbed groups of Vandals on their way from northern to Southern europe. Maybe that's how we can explain some "crimean Goths" Z63 haplotypes found in southern Russia. Balkan Z63 could be very easily descended from some slavicized germanic tribes of central Europe which together with Slavs in 7th century AD settled on Balkan peninsula. For example Vandali Silingi became Slavic Silesians, there is a lot of such examples. Simo 2013/11/19 Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]> > Your haplotype is an I1 generic at the moment. It fits into no identified > clade. I'd recommend Z58 as your starting snp test if you have not already > done it. > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-" > "Tree for I1 Z60+" > "Tree for I1 L22+" > "Tree for Isles L161" > "Tree for L38" > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6433+" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6433" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1 modalities" > "The M223+ Modalities" > "The L161 Isles Modalities" > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Симо > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 1:50 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Serbian I1 Macura Clan, Z63? > > Ken, have you checked haplotypes in your database? > > Sinisa > Време: 16.11.2013 9:21, simo пише: > > > > Ken, > > thank you for informations. I send you excel data as you asked. And > > also I send SNP testing certificate for first haplotype Macura. It is > > all in attachment. > > After you check your database could you suggest what SNPs should be done. > > > > All the best, > > Sinisa > > > > > > 2013/11/16 Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> > > > > It could be generic Z63+ but it also could be many other things. > > Only real > > handle or unusual feature is the 10 at 572. > > It is not member of any clade that I have identified --- I don't > > think. > > > > I'll give it another better look if you send it as a row of an > > excel file > > with the str values in separate column boxes. > > Then I'll add it (just one per surname) to my database and look > > more closely > > for any clade connection. But I doubt it has one. > > As formatted it is much labor for me to enter those str values > > into my excel > > spreadsheet. It is strange; a series of number presented in an email > > sometimes copy/pastes into excel, and other times it does not. In > > this case > > it does not transfer well into excel. All 67 numbers try to go into > a > > single cell. > > > > You probably need a few selected snp tests on one of the two dna > > samples. > > Certainly not both. > > > > > > > > - - - - > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > See: > > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > > "Tree for I1 Z58+ Z60-" > > "Tree for I1 Z60+" > > "Tree for I1 L22+" > > "Tree for Isles L161" > > "Tree for L38" > > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > > "Tree for M223+ Z161+ CTS6433+" > > "Tree for M223+ Z161+ x CTS6433" > > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > > "The I1 modalities" > > "The M223+ Modalities" > > "The L161 Isles Modalities" > > > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: simo > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:30 AM > > To: [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> > > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Serbian I1 Macura Clan, Z63? > > > > Ken, > > In Serbian DNA Project we are trying to establish connection between > > genetics and old clan legends to see is there any evidence of common > > origins among the clan members. One of such old clans originally from > > mountains of Montenegro belong to I1 haplogroup. It is clan of > > Macura. In > > Montenegro they are described as Old people and there is many legends > > mostly describing them as very tall and strong. In Montenegro they > are > > practically extinct, but in Dalmatia where they migrated from > > Montenegro > > they survived with surname Macura and some of them we tested with > > practically same results. There is also some Macuras in Poland, > > Ukraine, > > Slovakia and Czech lands. We are not sure are they migrants from > > Balkan or > > they maybe preserved some old north tribal name /Mazur?). > > > > Since the Ostrogoths in 5th and 6th century held great portion of > > Dalmatia > > we doubt that Macuras are remnants of those Goths, which were > > romanized and > > finaly slavicized. > > > > That's why I need help of you , because I am not sure that Macuras > > haplotype belong to Z63 (Z63 were found among some Krimean Goths > > and has > > its Iberian variant where Goths also lived). > > > > So, Ken could you help me and tell which subclade Macuras > > haplotype belong > > to. I have two 67 haplotypes from two different persons belonging to > > Macuras clan. Here they are in FTDNA order: > > > > First: > > > > 13 23 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 28 16 8 9 8 11 23 16 20 29 12 13 > > 15 16 10 > > 10 19 21 15 14 17 19 35 38 12 10 11 8 15 15 8 11 10 8 9 9 12 23 25 > > 15 10 12 > > 12 15 8 13 27 20 13 13 11 12 10 11 12 11 > > > > Second: > > > > 13 23 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 12 11 29 17 8 9 8 11 23 16 20 29 12 13 > > 15 16 10 > > 10 19 21 15 14 17 20 35 38 12 10 11 8 15 15 8 11 10 8 9 9 12 23 25 > > 15 10 12 > > 12 15 8 13 27 20 13 13 11 12 10 11 12 11 > > > > As you can see, one of things which doesn't fully fit with Z63 is > > DYS459a= > > 8 instead of 7, but on the other hand they are DYS 481=27 which > > fit with > > Z63. > > > > One more thing, First haplotype is SNP tested as M253+ L22- and M227- > > > > Ken, > > > > I would be really grateful if you can help me to designate those > > haplotypes > > in exact subgroups and write some your opinion on them, > > > > Sinisa Yerkovich, > > Administrator of Serbian DNA Project > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >