I'm only trying to tease out answers by asking questions--same as anybody else. I want to know what actually happened, no more or less than any other dispassionate party on this list. If I am wrong in any of my tentative assumptions, I will be happy to be shown why. Thanks. On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 10:17 AM, T.J. White <[email protected]> wrote: > Touché. > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > >> By widespread I assume you are talking "geography"? These 8000 b.p. >> haplogroup I dna samples have been found in two places --- Sweden and >> Luxuemberg --- presentday heartland of haplogroup I is about as extensive >> and certainly does not encompass the bulk of Europe. How concentrated >> geographically speaking did you imagine haplogroup I to be 8000 years ago? >> What I am trying to discover with these questions is just what some of you >> thought was the degree of spread of haplogroup I at that ancient time? Do >> you expect dna from 8000 bp and located anywhere along the northern shore >> of the Mediterranean or the south Balkans to be haplogroup I or even the >> M423+ branch of I? >> Maybe Mediterranean Europe 8000 b.p. was primarily some other branch of >> the >> tree which was eventually so overrun by the agriculturalists it went >> extinct? We need some 8000 b.p. dna from the south. And perhaps >> haplogroup >> I survived in the north because the agriculturists' invasion weakened as >> it >> penetrated more into northern Europe? >> >> >> What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour >> dna >> from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter >> dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. >> Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the >> two >> dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles >> apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut >> off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). >> >> >> Kenneth Nordtvedt >> >> Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: >> http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: T.J. White >> Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:51 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans >> >> Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to >> indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had >> previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually >> exclusive. >> >> Terry W. >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt >> <[email protected]>wrote: >> >> > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility >> > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some >> > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most >> > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. >> > >> > >> > >> > Kenneth Nordtvedt >> > >> > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: >> > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: T.J. White >> > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans >> > >> > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread >> > across >> > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. >> > >> > Terry W. >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." >> >> Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." > > Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165