Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Terry W. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: T.J. White > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

By widespread I assume you are talking "geography"? These 8000 b.p. haplogroup I dna samples have been found in two places --- Sweden and Luxuemberg --- presentday heartland of haplogroup I is about as extensive and certainly does not encompass the bulk of Europe. How concentrated geographically speaking did you imagine haplogroup I to be 8000 years ago? What I am trying to discover with these questions is just what some of you thought was the degree of spread of haplogroup I at that ancient time? Do you expect dna from 8000 bp and located anywhere along the northern shore of the Mediterranean or the south Balkans to be haplogroup I or even the M423+ branch of I? Maybe Mediterranean Europe 8000 b.p. was primarily some other branch of the tree which was eventually so overrun by the agriculturalists it went extinct? We need some 8000 b.p. dna from the south. And perhaps haplogroup I survived in the north because the agriculturists' invasion weakened as it penetrated more into northern Europe? What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour dna from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the two dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: T.J. White Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Terry W. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: T.J. White > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > across > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > Terry W. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here is a map of Europe 8,000 BP. Pretty much the same as now, except there was still a land-bridge from Europe to Britain. http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/eur%288ky.gif John O'Grady > What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour dna > from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter > dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. > Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the two > dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles > apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut > off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt

Touché. On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <[email protected]>wrote: > By widespread I assume you are talking "geography"? These 8000 b.p. > haplogroup I dna samples have been found in two places --- Sweden and > Luxuemberg --- presentday heartland of haplogroup I is about as extensive > and certainly does not encompass the bulk of Europe. How concentrated > geographically speaking did you imagine haplogroup I to be 8000 years ago? > What I am trying to discover with these questions is just what some of you > thought was the degree of spread of haplogroup I at that ancient time? Do > you expect dna from 8000 bp and located anywhere along the northern shore > of the Mediterranean or the south Balkans to be haplogroup I or even the > M423+ branch of I? > Maybe Mediterranean Europe 8000 b.p. was primarily some other branch of the > tree which was eventually so overrun by the agriculturalists it went > extinct? We need some 8000 b.p. dna from the south. And perhaps > haplogroup > I survived in the north because the agriculturists' invasion weakened as it > penetrated more into northern Europe? > > > What surprised me most about this paper's results was that the Loschbour > dna > from Luxuemberg was so close to the Motala12 dna from Sweden. The latter > dna was readable for 9 snps found in the vicinity of M423 in the I tree. > Motala12 was identical to Loschbour on all 9 of those snps for which the > two > dna samples were both readable, although being dug up five hundred miles > apart and separated by a strait of the sea (maybe not; was the Baltic cut > off from Atlantic 8000 b.p.?). > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > -----Original Message----- > From: T.J. White > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > Of course! But the new archaeological/genetic evidence also seems to > indicate that Haplogroup I* was also more widespread than some of us had > previously thought. I don't think the two are necessarily mutually > exclusive. > > Terry W. > > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > Luxuemberg to Sweden certain speaks about the haplogroup I possibility > > concerning northern Europe. But prior to arrival of R1b and R1a, some > > other haplogroups had to represent larger fraction of population most > > everywhere; that's a mathematical certainty. > > > > > > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: T.J. White > > Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 5:30 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans > > > > Possibly indicating that Haplogroup I* was once much more widespread > > across > > Europe, prior to the invasions of R1b and R1a. > > > > Terry W. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." > > Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

I don't think it can be called I*. I2-M423 and some, as of yet, poorly resolved I certainly, but not I*. It'll be interesting to see where and when any I1 and pre-I1 lineages appear in the ancient DNA record.

So far the oldest I1 found is that of Birger Magnusson, who died in 1266. (http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/royaldna.shtml) This map of  'Ancient European Y-DNA (to about 1000 BC)',  is showing several R1a & R1b remains in Europe, dated ~2600 BC https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=213438250367785646910.0004c207cb41957c65816&msa=0&ll=46.195042,9.84375&spn=18.525877,46.538086   Steve Trangsrud ________________________________ From: "Peterson, Phillip R." <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2014 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 3 ancestral populations for present-day Europeans I don't think it can be called I*.  I2-M423 and some, as of yet, poorly resolved I certainly, but not I*.  It'll be interesting to see where and when any I1 and pre-I1 lineages appear in the ancient DNA record. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message