To hg I mailing list: Below is a message describing the small subgroups of I-P37.2. Those of you in the I2a Project at FTDNA might receive a similar message soon. You can refer to Ken's updated hg I tree to see where he places these groups. Because I am sending this email to the I2a Project at FTDNA, I use FTDNA's outdated haplogroup names, Ken uses a more recent version but if you follow the nicknames like Alps you will be fine. Bernie Dear I2a Project members, There are four large subgroups of the I2a (I-P37.2) Haplogroup which are nicknamed Sardinian, Dinaric, Isles and Western. We are looking for new SNPs to divide these large groups and I will discuss some of these in my next email, one month from now. In this email I want to describe 5 small subgroups of I-P37.2: I2a*-P37.2 Alps I2a*-P37.2 France I2a*-P37.2 NF (Northern France) I2a1* L672- L277+ I2a2a Disles. You can see them on our results page: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults All of these groups have fewer than 10 members in the FTDNA project, some as few as two. More details about these subgroups: I2a*-P37.2 Alps This group is known from just a few individuals from southwestern Germany, northeastern Italy near the Alps, and one person from Romania (not in project). According to their 67 marker results, they are related to the I2a3-L233 "Western" group, but the Western group tests L233+ and the Western group is L233-. (Alpine, France, and NF all test P37.2+ and negative for all more recent SNPs). There is SNP evidence that links Alpine and Western into a larger group, but unfortunately this SNP (L624) does not work very well. I2a*-P37.2 France This group is found in many countries but the center of distribution is France and surrounding countries. All other I2a groups usually have the marker value DYS388=13, 14 or 15, but I2a*-France has 9. There are several new SNPs that need to be tested in this group, maybe we will find that I2a*-France shares an ancient connection with I2a1 "Sardinian" or I2a2 "Dinaric, Disles and Isles" for example. I2a*-P37.2 NF (Northern France) This group is not closely related to the I2a*-France group. There are only two known families in the group, one is from Normandy in northwestern France, and one is from Luxembourg which borders northeastern France. The two families are very distantly related, and we are looking for more members of this group. I2a1* L672- L277+ This group is called I2a1 because it is M26+, but it is very different from the larger I2a1 group. Most I2a1 "Sardinian" is M26+ L672+ L277- and has the very distinctive marker value YCAIIa,b=11,21. But this small I2a1* group is M26+ L672- L277+ and has YCAIIa,b=18,21. There are two branches of this small I2a1* L672- L277+ group, one has been found in Mexican-Americans and has likely Spanish origins, the other has been found in German-Americans, Swiss German-Americans, and one German person. The Spanish branch is also L247+ but the German branch is L247-. I2a2a Disles This group is closely related to the much larger Dinaric group. The easiest way to distinguish the groups is with the last marker of FTDNA's 67: Dinaric has the very distinctive DYS565=9, while Disles has DYS565=11 like the rest of I2a. We say that Dinaric is "young" because all Dinarics have 67 marker values similar to each other. Disles have 67 marker values that show a wider range of variation. What we call Disles might be two or more groups: one very closely related to Dinaric, others more distant. Please send me an email if you have questions--Bernie

[[ My take on a few clades is different. See below KN ]] -----Original Message----- From: Bernie Cullen I2a*-P37.2 France This group is found in many countries but the center of distribution is France and surrounding countries. All other I2a groups usually have the marker value DYS388=13, 14 or 15, but I2a*-France has 9. There are several new SNPs that need to be tested in this group, maybe we will find that I2a*-France shares an ancient connection with I2a1 "Sardinian" or I2a2 "Dinaric, Disles and Isles" for example. [[What new snps other than that bunch 1000 Genomes says is from M26+ region? I2a1*-F on basis of extended haplotypes is significantly closer to Dinaric and Isles, and there are no untested snps at the moment from that sector. KN ]] I2a*-P37.2 NF (Northern France) This group is not closely related to the I2a*-France group. [[But it is closest to it and Dinaric and Isles by extended haplotype, rather than Western or M26+; albeit "closest" still meaning very anciently connected. KN ]] There are only two known families in the group, one is from Normandy in northwestern France, and one is from Luxembourg which borders northeastern France. The two families are very distantly related, and we are looking for more members of this group. I2a2a Disles This group is closely related to the much larger Dinaric group. The easiest way to distinguish the groups is with the last marker of FTDNA's 67: Dinaric has the very distinctive DYS565=9, while Disles has DYS565=11 like the rest of I2a. We say that Dinaric is "young" because all Dinarics have 67 marker values similar to each other. Disles have 67 marker values that show a wider range of variation. What we call Disles might be two or more groups: one very closely related to Dinaric, others more distant [[What evidence is there for this? My population of Disles shows no bifurcation; and its tmrca estimate is 3300 years. The node age BETWEEN Disles and Dinaric is much older than either Disles or Dinaric ages, being around 6000 years. But I see no outliers branching off from back then. KN ]]. [[ An important characteristic of Disles is its geographical location. It comes overwhelmingly from British Isles and not Eastern Europe as Dinaric is strongly centered. KN ]]

Ken, I agree with what you write. My purpose in writing my summary was to show the need for testing additional SNPs or extended haplotypes in these 5 small groups: I am trying to solicit donations from people in other groups of I-P37.2. Your hg I tree based on STRs is the best thing we have but we will eventually confirm or modify it based on SNPs. Most of the new SNPs have not been tested at all in I2a1*-F aka I2a*-France. If we are doing a WTY for this group eventually, maybe we can wait for that. We ordered a L343 test several weeks ago, but there was a mixup and the lab had no DNA sample for the person, it will be 6 weeks or more until we get results. Not tested for I2a1*-F yet are: L624, L673, L707, maybe a derived result is unlikely but they should be tested eventually if we don't find a connection with M423/L343. One error in my original email: it should read "but the Western group tests L233+ and the ALPINE group is L233-" in the paragraph below--Bernie I2a*-P37.2 Alps This group is known from just a few individuals from southwestern Germany, northeastern Italy near the Alps, and one person from Romania (not in project). According to their 67 marker results, they are related to the I2a3-L233 "Western" group, but the Western group tests L233+ and the Western group is L233-. (Alpine, France, and NF all test P37.2+ and negative for all more recent SNPs). There is SNP evidence that links Alpine and Western into a larger group, but unfortunately this SNP (L624) does not work very well.