Ken, How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently recent tmrca or 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the common ancestor? It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca calculation. I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished. On 12/16/2011 7:28 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > My interpretation, based on my old tmrca with AS2, and the young tmrca of > AS2 itself, is that both lines after parting ways simply diverged as they > will. I could not suggest yet what the haplotypes looked like at the > beginning of Z139+. > > I see some commonalities among AS2, your haplotype, mine.... but it is not > much to hang a hat on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owodom@mail.utexas.edu > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 6:07 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ > > Ray, > > Do I interpret your message correctly that you are I1-AS2 and are > Z58+, Z139+, and Z138+? If so, that puts you (I1-AS2)and Ken and me > (I1-AS-generic) in the same clade, as judged by SNPs. Do you agree, > Ken? Could this mean that the Y-STR pattern of I1-AS2 is more similar > to the pattern of our common ancestor, but that the Y-STR pattern of > some of us I1-AS-generics has mutated enough that we can no longer be > recognized by STRs but only by SNPs? >

I don't understand your scenario 2)? You have a bunch of haplotypes of a clade. They have accumulated STR repeat differences. Their variance is a measure of time back to the MRCA. That's it. When the ancestral line of the MRCA split from other branches of I1 is a different issue --- different node, as measured by interclade variances. -----Original Message----- From: Obed W Odom Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:02 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ Ken, How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently recent tmrca or 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the common ancestor? It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca calculation. I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished. On 12/16/2011 7:28 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > My interpretation, based on my old tmrca with AS2, and the young tmrca of > AS2 itself, is that both lines after parting ways simply diverged as they > will. I could not suggest yet what the haplotypes looked like at the > beginning of Z139+. > > I see some commonalities among AS2, your haplotype, mine.... but it is not > much to hang a hat on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owodom@mail.utexas.edu > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 6:07 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ > > Ray, > > Do I interpret your message correctly that you are I1-AS2 and are > Z58+, Z139+, and Z138+? If so, that puts you (I1-AS2)and Ken and me > (I1-AS-generic) in the same clade, as judged by SNPs. Do you agree, > Ken? Could this mean that the Y-STR pattern of I1-AS2 is more similar > to the pattern of our common ancestor, but that the Y-STR pattern of > some of us I1-AS-generics has mutated enough that we can no longer be > recognized by STRs but only by SNPs? > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message