I don't think I deserve that kind of snippy and pejorative reply.  It was just as rude to me as that man was to you. Which goes to show that rudeness has nothing to do with educational deficits.  Wendy On Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:43 PM, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> wrote: PMSing?  For heavens sake, let's not perpetuate that lame stereotype of an excuse.  I've never "PMS'd" in my life, and I've never met a woman who did.  Did I accuse this guy of "testosterone poisoning"?  Rudeness and illogical thinking are not gender disorders, they're educational deficits. Diana > From: wendy quinlan > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:33 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > <snip> > I wrote back and essentially told her she was a nut and not to ever write back > to me again.  I'm assuming that maybe she was PMSing, but your guy has no such > excuse. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kit 331731 (Bronson) is a 64/67 match for Britton and is expecting results for his Y-11 1 upgrade on the 26th, but is tempted to order Big-Y during the sale this week. He wants to know which AS7E2 would make the best comparison for him--Britton or Lynch (who is a 60/67 match) --or whether someone else from AS7E2 be just as good. My view is that he probably won't have a choice--I think we'll be lucky to get a second volunteer. Lindsey

I've just received this notice from FTDNA--will the matching system be sufficient to eliminate the painstaking comparisons that have been necessary to this point to identify new downstream SNPs? If so, then I will ask whether any L1275s or L1274s are interested in taking advantage of the sale on Big-Y. I Lindsey PS I wonder how long "phased" will be. "Big Y matching is coming! Over the course of the next two weeks we will begin a phased release of Big Y matching so you can directly compare your comprehensive Y-DNA results to those of other Big Y test takers. The key to identifying all new SNPs and subclades is finally here!"

"it seems the problem is that he got totally invested in the "big family myth" and isn't prepared to let it go....the big myth connects us to an illustrious family that is Hg R1b." LOL...I've got the same kind of myth in my own family that my immigrant ancestor William Simonds (1611-1672) of Woburn, MA was the grandson of a gentleman named William Symonds (d. 1606) who had a coat of arms, was a mayor and alderman of Winchester, is buried in Winchester cathedral, and left a very large estate. Unfortunately, the immigrant to America, William Simonds of Woburn, MA was probably an indentured servant and married a woman who also came to America as an indentured servant. He was also probably illiterate since in numerous Massachusetts court records, he always signed his name with as "X" unlike a number of other people in Woburn, MA. None of this fits the profile of someone from the landed gentry. But this totally unsupported notion that he did come from the landed gentry is a myth that many people want to believe in and which ought to be debunked. Matthew Simonds > From: DianaGM@dgmweb.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 01:45:31 -0400 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > He has emailed me twice since the first message, and it seems the problem is > that he got totally invested in the "big family myth" and isn't prepared to let > it go. > > There's more to it than just the fact that these are two different families > based on the GD of their STR haplotypes, even though both are Hg I2. The little > myth was that the two families are one; the big myth connects us to an > illustrious family that is Hg R1b. And he still thinks I'm wrong. > > When I suggested he didn't appreciate the probabilities involved, he countered > that he's a statistician as well as a geneticist. Well, what a combo, he must > be right! > > Appealing to one's credentials is considered a logical fallacy because even > experts can be wrong. There's an almost unbelievable example pertaining to > genetics in the item at Wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority > > I'd be happy to explain the situation to him in as much detail as it takes, but > I have to admit I begrudge the time to someone who's been so unpleasant to me. > (I also think nothing I could say would change his mind.) Thankfully, he's not > descended from a RAZEY/RASEY on a patrilineal line, so I won't have to deal with > him as a project member. (Feeling like I dodged a bullet.) > > Diana > > > > From: Elizabeth Britton > > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 4:39 PM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > > > > > > Not necessarily--authority is rather like any sort of label--the quality of > > the underlying product guarantees the label, and not the other way around. > > I'd ask him to explain why he thinks that a GD of 16 or 30 implies a > > relationship within genealogical time when no one else in the field would > > agree--that is, if you decide he's worth trying to convert. He won't give a > > reason, of course, because he doesn't have one--he had hoped instead to scare > > you with his credentials, and that is what I found so amusing. > > > > I've had one bad experience of this kind, but it involved different > > Haplogroups and not GD; however, that story ended as well as such a story can > > end and the family in question is still active in my project. > > > > Some take it hard when they discover that their line isn't what they thought > > it was or what their research indicated, and the unexpected result leaves > > scars that never go away, while others take the shock in stride and recover > > quickly. I've often wondered how I would have reacted if I've uncovered a > > break in my line. > > > > Lindsey > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I doubt if young people, today, appreciate the social pressure there was on our predecessors to have illustrious ancestry. That pressure is part of the reason for so much very bad genealogy in the past, especially the era of "vanity books" in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That pressure came down to my parents' generation in that two of my aunts (one on my father's side, one on my mothers) worked on the family genealogy for decades in an attempt to confirm our alleged illustrious connections. Ironically, while nearly all the family myths on both sides were bogus, our "true" ancestry has connections that are just as illustrious and far more interesting, if they could only have given up on the myths. On that score, my projects, some ten years old now, have been repeated dispensers of disappointment for some members, including a situation exactly parallel to the one you describe. How you do even consider connecting someone who arrived indentured for his passage to a wealthy, powerful aristocratic family? But people did, and genetic testing has now proven them not to be related. I was the only one delighted. Being skeptical saves you from a lot of disappointment when reality sets in. Diana > From: Matthew Simonds > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 2:23 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > "it seems the problem is that he got totally invested in the "big family myth" > and isn't prepared to let > it go....the big myth connects us to an illustrious family that is Hg R1b." > > LOL...I've got the same kind of myth in my own family that my immigrant > ancestor William Simonds (1611-1672) of Woburn, MA was the grandson of a > gentleman named William Symonds (d. 1606) who had a coat of arms, was a mayor > and alderman of Winchester, is buried in Winchester cathedral, and left a very > large estate. Unfortunately, the immigrant to America, William Simonds of > Woburn, MA was probably an indentured servant and married a woman who also > came to America as an indentured servant. He was also probably illiterate > since in numerous Massachusetts court records, he always signed his name with > as "X" unlike a number of other people in Woburn, MA. None of this fits the > profile of someone from the landed gentry. But this totally unsupported notion > that he did come from the landed gentry is a myth that many people want to > believe in and which ought to be debunked. > > Matthew Simonds

PMSing? For heavens sake, let's not perpetuate that lame stereotype of an excuse. I've never "PMS'd" in my life, and I've never met a woman who did. Did I accuse this guy of "testosterone poisoning"? Rudeness and illogical thinking are not gender disorders, they're educational deficits. Diana > From: wendy quinlan > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:33 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > <snip> > I wrote back and essentially told her she was a nut and not to ever write back > to me again.  I'm assuming that maybe she was PMSing, but your guy has no such > excuse.

He has emailed me twice since the first message, and it seems the problem is that he got totally invested in the "big family myth" and isn't prepared to let it go. There's more to it than just the fact that these are two different families based on the GD of their STR haplotypes, even though both are Hg I2. The little myth was that the two families are one; the big myth connects us to an illustrious family that is Hg R1b. And he still thinks I'm wrong. When I suggested he didn't appreciate the probabilities involved, he countered that he's a statistician as well as a geneticist. Well, what a combo, he must be right! Appealing to one's credentials is considered a logical fallacy because even experts can be wrong. There's an almost unbelievable example pertaining to genetics in the item at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority I'd be happy to explain the situation to him in as much detail as it takes, but I have to admit I begrudge the time to someone who's been so unpleasant to me. (I also think nothing I could say would change his mind.) Thankfully, he's not descended from a RAZEY/RASEY on a patrilineal line, so I won't have to deal with him as a project member. (Feeling like I dodged a bullet.) Diana > From: Elizabeth Britton > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 4:39 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > > Not necessarily--authority is rather like any sort of label--the quality of > the underlying product guarantees the label, and not the other way around. > I'd ask him to explain why he thinks that a GD of 16 or 30 implies a > relationship within genealogical time when no one else in the field would > agree--that is, if you decide he's worth trying to convert. He won't give a > reason, of course, because he doesn't have one--he had hoped instead to scare > you with his credentials, and that is what I found so amusing. > > I've had one bad experience of this kind, but it involved different > Haplogroups and not GD; however, that story ended as well as such a story can > end and the family in question is still active in my project. > > Some take it hard when they discover that their line isn't what they thought > it was or what their research indicated, and the unexpected result leaves > scars that never go away, while others take the shock in stride and recover > quickly. I've often wondered how I would have reacted if I've uncovered a > break in my line. > > Lindsey

The rub is that appeals to authority are a logical fallacy to begin with, something I would assume an educated person would know, so not use one. The issue has to be whether the conclusions drawn from the test results are valid - and if not, why not - not over the credentials of who made them. He didn't address the actual issue, at all. I mean, if he thinks a GD of 16 at 67 markers (30 at 111 markers) is a match, he needs to give the basis for such an assertion, not just tell me I'm wrong. Diana **************************** Not necessarily--authority is rather like any sort of label--the quality of the underlying product guarantees the label, and not the other way around. I'd ask him to explain why he thinks that a GD of 16 or 30 implies a relationship within genealogical time when no one else in the field would agree--that is, if you decide he's worth trying to convert. He won't give a reason, of course, because he doesn't have one--he had hoped instead to scare you with his credentials, and that is what I found so amusing. I've had one bad experience of this kind, but it involved different Haplogroups and not GD; however, that story ended as well as such a story can end and the family in question is still active in my project. Some take it hard when they discover that their line isn't what they thought it was or what their research indicated, and the unexpected result leaves scars that never go away, while others take the shock in stride and recover quickly. I've often wondered how I would have reacted if I've uncovered a break in my line. Lindsey

" My sole reason for using Y-DNA testing is as a tool to support or debunk paper genealogy " Me too Same here Regards Peter This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the addressee(s). It may contain personal and confidential information and as such may be protected by the Data Protection Acts 1984 and 1998. If you are not the intended recipient of this email you must not disclose, copy or distribute its contents to any other person nor use its contents in any way or you may be acting unlawfully you must delete the email from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as contract, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert Dozier Sent: 08 June 2014 3:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? " My sole reason for using Y-DNA testing is as a tool to support or debunk paper genealogy " Me too Robert Dozier #283178 -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:51 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? My sole reason for using Y-DNA testing is as a tool to support or debunk paper genealogy. For that, I need the paper genealogy. Diana > From: Robert May > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:03 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Dianna > I don't see anything wrong on your page or your conclusions. With SNP > tests like that I don't see how they could be related in modern times. > Your correspondent leaves a lot to be desired in his approach. > > The paternal trees I believe are up to the tester whether they are > visible or not. Anyway why would you need a tree with those DNA results? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dianna I don't see anything wrong on your page or your conclusions. With SNP tests like that I don't see how they could be related in modern times. Your correspondent leaves a lot to be desired in his approach. The paternal trees I believe are up to the tester whether they are visible or not. Anyway why would you need a tree with those DNA results? BobDNA Projects I2b L415, I2c L596 HG & Tyler Surname and ISOGG YTree > > the two families to each other: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Rasey/RaseyDNA-results.html > > > > If I'm wrong about the two families not being connected in genealogical > > time, then I want to correct my error, though I'm baffled that he > > complains > > I don't give lineages. They're right there on the page (scroll to far > > right). > > > > This is the message: > > > > > From: David Harden [mailto:hrdndv@hotmail.com] > > > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 4:16 PM > > > To: DianaGM@dgmweb.net > > > Subject: Rasey Y-DNA Surname Project > > > > > > This is a complaint that you are not putting correct > > > information on your site. I am PhD Biologist specializing > > > in speciation. I know DNA. When you get an individual > > > representing Joseph Rasey and Mary Hollan you must present > > > the paternal lineage so it can be checked. There are many > > > people out there that have erroneous lineages. There are > > > also many family children lists that are linked to the > > > wrong parent. Quite often a male child born to the mother’s > > > first husband will adopt the surname of the second husband. > > > These problems cannot be examined when you do not give the > > > full male lineage. Your conclusion that Joseph Rasey who > > > married Mary Hollan is not related to the other Joseph > > > Rasey is bogus. You do not know this. If you did not mean > > > to say this in the results page then you should correct it. > > > You present y-DNA results in an amateurish unprofessional > > > way. You need to go back to school and learn what you are > > > doing. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diana, I see nothing in particular on your website that could suggest you have not present the Y-DNA information in an acceptable way. Admittedly, a few things need to be updated due to changes in Haplotree labelling at ISOGG and at FTDNA. References to I2b and I2b1 need to be updated with something like Haplogroup I-M223 (I2a2a at ISOGG, was previously I2b1 and before that I1c). You need bring the latest SNP testing info up into point 1 near the top of the page. eg. 1. Although both progenitors turn out to be Haplo*group_**I-M223 (I2a2a previous I2b1 and before that I1c)*, their STR haplo*types* indicate they are not closely related, debunking the assertion that Joseph RAZEE I was the father of Joseph RASEY I. They also differ significantly on their SNPs that determine their placement on the Haplotree and thus the time back to a common ancestor. Joseph RAZEE I paternal linage falls under the SNP branch line: M223 -> CTS616 -> CTS10057 -> Z183, L801 -> CTS6433 -> Z78, Z171 -> Z185 -> Z180 -> L1198*. Joseph RASEY I paternal linage falls under the SNP branch line: M223 -> CTS616 -> CTS10057 -> Z183, L801 -> CTS1977*. The time to a common ancestor is in the thousands of years, not a couple of hundred. See the ISOGG Y-tree for Haplogroup I at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html . (* - further SNPs will be found downstream) Wayne On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Ian Gammage <iangammage@iinet.net.au> wrote: > Hello Diana, > > I agree. I feel you have reacted maturely too. > > Best wishes, Ian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2014 1:44 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Hello Ian, > > I'm relieved to know his tone seemed as offensive to you as it did to me. > It's not the kind of approach that seems intended to open a constructive > dialogue. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: > y-dna-haplogroup-i- > > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ian Gammage > > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 11:20 PM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > > Diana, > > > > I don't know who is right and who is wrong on this question. I don't care > > either way. I just find the manner in which this person has presented his > > argument offensive. There is no need to use the terminology especially > > when > > no alternative answer is presented. This man would never make a teacher > > despite his specialist qualifications. Quite an academic snob. > > > > Best wishes, Ian > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > > Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:48 AM > > To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > > I just received the following message in regard to my RASEY Y-DNA Surname > > Project. As the two families involved belong to subclades of Haplogroup > > I2, > > I believe I could find no better group of experts to ask than subscribers > > to > > this list, so I would request your opinion. > > > > The project page is out-of-date with regard to all the recent changes to > > the > > Y-DNA haplotree, but I don't believe those have changed the relationship > > of > > the two families to each other: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Rasey/RaseyDNA-results.html > > > > If I'm wrong about the two families not being connected in genealogical > > time, then I want to correct my error, though I'm baffled that he > > complains > > I don't give lineages. They're right there on the page (scroll to far > > right). > > > > This is the message: > > > > > From: David Harden [mailto:hrdndv@hotmail.com] > > > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 4:16 PM > > > To: DianaGM@dgmweb.net > > > Subject: Rasey Y-DNA Surname Project > > > > > > This is a complaint that you are not putting correct > > > information on your site. I am PhD Biologist specializing > > > in speciation. I know DNA. When you get an individual > > > representing Joseph Rasey and Mary Hollan you must present > > > the paternal lineage so it can be checked. There are many > > > people out there that have erroneous lineages. There are > > > also many family children lists that are linked to the > > > wrong parent. Quite often a male child born to the mother’s > > > first husband will adopt the surname of the second husband. > > > These problems cannot be examined when you do not give the > > > full male lineage. Your conclusion that Joseph Rasey who > > > married Mary Hollan is not related to the other Joseph > > > Rasey is bogus. You do not know this. If you did not mean > > > to say this in the results page then you should correct it. > > > You present y-DNA results in an amateurish unprofessional > > > way. You need to go back to school and learn what you are > > > doing. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

"by far the most hostile, vituperative messages I've gotten over the years have to do with debunking family myths. One hazard of being a surname project admin: you get shot as the messenger." I wish that I could get more people with my own surname to do DNA testing, because I believe that there are a number of myths that need to be debunked. Two people published a genealogy of the ancestry and descendants of my own immigrant ancestor William Simonds of Woburn, MA (1611-1672) almost 30 years ago, but I'm certain that even one of the authors of this book is not a part of this family or at least not by the line of descent that he claims in the book he helped write. Matthew Simonds > From: DianaGM@dgmweb.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 01:13:18 -0400 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Ian, > > Well, the *really* mature thing for me to have done here would probably have been to hit my Del key and ignore the message entirely. I partly thought y'all might get a hoot out of it because it's so hard to believe this guy has the knowledge of genetics he claims. > > The results in the Rasey project debunk two long-standing myths about the families, and he's reacting more like a hobby genealogist who's been heavily invested in those myths, than he is like a geneticist. I've had my web site 16 years now, and by far the most hostile, vituperative messages I've gotten over the years have to do with debunking family myths. One hazard of being a surname project admin: you get shot as the messenger. > > Diana > > > From: Ian Gammage > > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 11:57 PM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > > Hello Diana, > > > > I agree. I feel you have reacted maturely too. > > > > Best wishes, Ian > > > > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > > Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2014 1:44 PM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > > Hello Ian, > > > > I'm relieved to know his tone seemed as offensive to you as it did to me. > > It's not the kind of approach that seems intended to open a constructive > > dialogue. > > > > Diana > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Diana, I agree. I feel you have reacted maturely too. Best wishes, Ian -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2014 1:44 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? Hello Ian, I'm relieved to know his tone seemed as offensive to you as it did to me. It's not the kind of approach that seems intended to open a constructive dialogue. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ian Gammage > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 11:20 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Diana, > > I don't know who is right and who is wrong on this question. I don't care > either way. I just find the manner in which this person has presented his > argument offensive. There is no need to use the terminology especially > when > no alternative answer is presented. This man would never make a teacher > despite his specialist qualifications. Quite an academic snob. > > Best wishes, Ian > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diana Gale Matthiesen > Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:48 AM > To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > I just received the following message in regard to my RASEY Y-DNA Surname > Project. As the two families involved belong to subclades of Haplogroup > I2, > I believe I could find no better group of experts to ask than subscribers > to > this list, so I would request your opinion. > > The project page is out-of-date with regard to all the recent changes to > the > Y-DNA haplotree, but I don't believe those have changed the relationship > of > the two families to each other: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Rasey/RaseyDNA-results.html > > If I'm wrong about the two families not being connected in genealogical > time, then I want to correct my error, though I'm baffled that he > complains > I don't give lineages. They're right there on the page (scroll to far > right). > > This is the message: > > > From: David Harden [mailto:hrdndv@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 4:16 PM > > To: DianaGM@dgmweb.net > > Subject: Rasey Y-DNA Surname Project > > > > This is a complaint that you are not putting correct > > information on your site. I am PhD Biologist specializing > > in speciation. I know DNA. When you get an individual > > representing Joseph Rasey and Mary Hollan you must present > > the paternal lineage so it can be checked. There are many > > people out there that have erroneous lineages. There are > > also many family children lists that are linked to the > > wrong parent. Quite often a male child born to the mother’s > > first husband will adopt the surname of the second husband. > > These problems cannot be examined when you do not give the > > full male lineage. Your conclusion that Joseph Rasey who > > married Mary Hollan is not related to the other Joseph > > Rasey is bogus. You do not know this. If you did not mean > > to say this in the results page then you should correct it. > > You present y-DNA results in an amateurish unprofessional > > way. You need to go back to school and learn what you are > > doing. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diana, I don't know who is right and who is wrong on this question. I don't care either way. I just find the manner in which this person has presented his argument offensive. There is no need to use the terminology especially when no alternative answer is presented. This man would never make a teacher despite his specialist qualifications. Quite an academic snob. Best wishes, Ian -----Original Message----- From: Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:48 AM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? I just received the following message in regard to my RASEY Y-DNA Surname Project. As the two families involved belong to subclades of Haplogroup I2, I believe I could find no better group of experts to ask than subscribers to this list, so I would request your opinion. The project page is out-of-date with regard to all the recent changes to the Y-DNA haplotree, but I don't believe those have changed the relationship of the two families to each other: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Rasey/RaseyDNA-results.html If I'm wrong about the two families not being connected in genealogical time, then I want to correct my error, though I'm baffled that he complains I don't give lineages. They're right there on the page (scroll to far right). This is the message: > From: David Harden [mailto:hrdndv@hotmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 4:16 PM > To: DianaGM@dgmweb.net > Subject: Rasey Y-DNA Surname Project > > This is a complaint that you are not putting correct > information on your site. I am PhD Biologist specializing > in speciation. I know DNA. When you get an individual > representing Joseph Rasey and Mary Hollan you must present > the paternal lineage so it can be checked. There are many > people out there that have erroneous lineages. There are > also many family children lists that are linked to the > wrong parent. Quite often a male child born to the mother’s > first husband will adopt the surname of the second husband. > These problems cannot be examined when you do not give the > full male lineage. Your conclusion that Joseph Rasey who > married Mary Hollan is not related to the other Joseph > Rasey is bogus. You do not know this. If you did not mean > to say this in the results page then you should correct it. > You present y-DNA results in an amateurish unprofessional > way. You need to go back to school and learn what you are > doing. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> From: Elizabeth Britton > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 9:52 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > Well, the *really* mature thing for me to have done here would probably have > been to hit my Del key and ignore the message entirely. I partly thought > y'all might get a hoot out of it because it's so hard to believe this guy has > the knowledge of genetics he claims. > > ******************* > > I did. How ironic--a Ph.D biologist-- I assume he doesn't know your > background? > > Lindsey The rub is that appeals to authority are a logical fallacy to begin with, something I would assume an educated person would know, so not use one. The issue has to be whether the conclusions drawn from the test results are valid - and if not, why not - not over the credentials of who made them. He didn't address the actual issue, at all. I mean, if he thinks a GD of 16 at 67 markers (30 at 111 markers) is a match, he needs to give the basis for such an assertion, not just tell me I'm wrong. Diana

" My sole reason for using Y-DNA testing is as a tool to support or debunk paper genealogy " Me too Robert Dozier #283178 -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Diana Gale Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:51 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? My sole reason for using Y-DNA testing is as a tool to support or debunk paper genealogy. For that, I need the paper genealogy. Diana > From: Robert May > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:03 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Dianna > I don't see anything wrong on your page or your conclusions. With SNP > tests like that I don't see how they could be related in modern times. > Your correspondent leaves a lot to be desired in his approach. > > The paternal trees I believe are up to the tester whether they are > visible or not. Anyway why would you need a tree with those DNA results? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A hoot for sure. I'm glad I'm not the only one to receive such a rant. I once let somebody look at one of my tree's that I make for our Glover Surname Project, (which I normally keep private), and I had made a note that a man who had been married 3 times evidently did not count his short lived first marriage, since he only claimed to have been married twice on his 1900 census.  She then twisted it around  and said that I must have said that the child born of this marriage did not count and how dare I say that this because this child was such a noble flag waving red white and blue citizen yada yada yada.  I was really in shock as to the vehemency of her long tirade.   I wrote back and essentially told her she was a nut and not to ever write back to me again.  I'm assuming that maybe she was PMSing, but your guy has no such excuse.   Wendy On Sunday, June 8, 2014 9:36 AM, Diana Gale Matthiesen <DianaGM@dgmweb.net> wrote: > From: Elizabeth Britton > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 9:52 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > > Well, the *really* mature thing for me to have done here would probably have > been to hit my Del key and ignore the message entirely.  I partly thought > y'all might get a hoot out of it because it's so hard to believe this guy has > the knowledge of genetics he claims. > > ******************* > > I did.  How ironic--a Ph.D biologist-- I assume he doesn't know your > background? > > Lindsey The rub is that appeals to authority are a logical fallacy to begin with, something I would assume an educated person would know, so not use one.  The issue has to be whether the conclusions drawn from the test results are valid - and if not, why not - not over the credentials of who made them.  He didn't address the actual issue, at all.  I mean, if he thinks a GD of 16 at 67 markers (30 at 111 markers) is a match, he needs to give the basis for such an assertion, not just tell me I'm wrong. Diana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well, the *really* mature thing for me to have done here would probably have been to hit my Del key and ignore the message entirely. I partly thought y'all might get a hoot out of it because it's so hard to believe this guy has the knowledge of genetics he claims. ******************* I did. How ironic--a Ph.D biologist-- I assume he doesn't know your background? Lindsey

My sole reason for using Y-DNA testing is as a tool to support or debunk paper genealogy. For that, I need the paper genealogy. Diana > From: Robert May > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 1:03 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Dianna > I don't see anything wrong on your page or your conclusions. With SNP tests > like that I don't see how they could be related in modern times. > Your correspondent leaves a lot to be desired in his approach. > > The paternal trees I believe are up to the tester whether they are visible or > not. Anyway why would you need a tree with those DNA results?

Wayne, Yes, as I said in my message, I know the SNP/haplotree information is out of date. And, yes, it's time to abandon hierarchical labels. However, I don't believe the new SNP data changes the relationships among the four tested individuals: two matching individuals in each of two unrelated families, which is my main concern genealogically. As some of you might have noticed, I haven't been messaging on the list for some months now — since just about the time BigY results started to come in. I simply haven't had the time with other matters pressing. I'm back trying to catch up with my projects, but we've just had a huge breakthrough in my CORBIN project (a major family has just "crossed the pond"), so I'll be tied up with that for awhile. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction with the RASEY-RAZEE page. I know it needs to be done. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wayne R. Roberts > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2014 12:59 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Am I in error regarding RASEY-RAZEE non-match? > > Diana, I see nothing in particular on your website that could suggest you > have not present the Y-DNA information in an acceptable way. Admittedly, a > few things need to be updated due to changes in Haplotree labelling at > ISOGG and at FTDNA. References to I2b and I2b1 need to be updated with > something like Haplogroup I-M223 (I2a2a at ISOGG, was previously I2b1 and > before that I1c). > > You need bring the latest SNP testing info up into point 1 near the top of > the page. eg. > > 1. Although both progenitors turn out to be Haplo*group_**I-M223 (I2a2a > previous I2b1 and before that I1c)*, their STR haplo*types* indicate they > are not closely related, debunking the assertion that Joseph RAZEE I was > the father of Joseph RASEY I. They also differ significantly on their SNPs > that determine their placement on the Haplotree and thus the time back to a > common ancestor. Joseph RAZEE I paternal linage falls under the SNP branch > line: M223 -> CTS616 -> CTS10057 -> Z183, L801 -> CTS6433 -> Z78, Z171 -> > Z185 -> Z180 -> L1198*. Joseph RASEY I paternal linage falls under the SNP > branch line: M223 -> CTS616 -> CTS10057 -> Z183, L801 -> CTS1977*. The time > to a common ancestor is in the thousands of years, not a couple of hundred. > See the ISOGG Y-tree for Haplogroup I at > http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpI.html . (* - further SNPs will be > found downstream) > > Wayne