Ken I'm in the UK. I've never heard of Charlie Rose before. Can you perhaps explain what exactly you mean by "race"? What do you think constitutes a "race"? How many races are there supposed to be? Obviously there are geographical differences in the distribution of alleles and there is still much work to be done but there has been much more migration than people imagine. Humans have not been isolated in different continents for thousands of years. There has always been gene flow between countries and between continents. For example, only a short distance separates Spain from Morocco, two different countries on two different continents. Perhaps you're thinking of Neanderthals which could perhaps be described as a separate species or race. However, we now know that Neanderthals interbred with humans so even the boundaries between "species" are becoming very blurred. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 29 June 2014 0:02 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Genetics shows that gene allele frequencies are definitely correlated with race and differ from race to race --- and for good reason; for tens of thousands of years up until very recently people from different locations on earth interbred very very little with those from other locations. The question for future research is to find out to what degree these genetic differences lead to variations in human traits, behaviors, preferences, and abilities, etc., and how much genetics is a factor in all this diversity as compared to influences of human cultures and material circumstances. So your ".... in fact...." is premature and asserts an answer before the inquiry. "Who's Charlie Rose" gave me a chuckle; I try to ignore him, too. But sometimes I accidently stumble upon an interesting guest he has on his show, and I tune in for that guest. >From your gmail address I can not tell whether you are from USA or elsewhere; Charlie Rose is a USA TV fixture. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

I'm not familiar with either of those books but they are somewhat irrelevant. The point remains that science is advanced by publication in peer-reviewed scientific journals not by publishing books. I will reserve judgement on Nicholas Wade until such time as he is able to publish his "research" in a legitimate scientific journal but I'm not going to waste my time reading his pseudoscientific book. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kimel Sent: 28 June 2014 22:52 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book If we depended on academicians, we would still be reading Margaret Meads' "Coming of Age in Samoa", and Stephen J. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man, " both of which were complete scientific frauds. As I say, read Wade's book yourself, and make your own judgement. Dan

Last year I watched Spencer Wells' documentary, The Journey of Man, in which he was saying that haplogroup R1b was one of the oldest in Europe and that they are descended from Cro-Magnon man. But this does not look very likely any more even though Wells is a scientist instead of being a science journalist. So I don't think that all scientists always know what they are talking about or that what science journalists write is all "pseudoscience". Spencer Wells: "Men belonging to Haplogroup R1b are direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon people who, beginning 30,000 years ago, dominated the human expansion into Europe and heralded the demise of the Neanderthal species," From: mwsimonds@hotmail.com To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 23:30:31 +0000 "I will reserve judgement on Nicholas Wade until such time as he is able to publish his research in a legitimate scientific journal but I'm not going to waste my time reading his pseudoscientific book." He's not a scientist so that is unlikely to happen. He's a science journalist. But sometimes science journalists are still better than scientists at writing for the general public. He is also a former science writer for the New York Times. Here is another review of his book in the New York Review of Books: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/stretch-genes/?insrc=toc > From: debbiekennett@gmail.com > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 00:07:22 +0100 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > I'm not familiar with either of those books but they are somewhat > irrelevant. The point remains that science is advanced by publication in > peer-reviewed scientific journals not by publishing books. I will reserve > judgement on Nicholas Wade until such time as he is able to publish his > "research" in a legitimate scientific journal but I'm not going to waste my > time reading his pseudoscientific book. > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kimel > Sent: 28 June 2014 22:52 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > If we depended on academicians, we would still be reading Margaret Meads' > "Coming of Age in Samoa", and Stephen J. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man, " > both of which were complete scientific frauds. > > As I say, read Wade's book yourself, and make your own judgement. > > Dan > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

"I will reserve judgement on Nicholas Wade until such time as he is able to publish his research in a legitimate scientific journal but I'm not going to waste my time reading his pseudoscientific book." He's not a scientist so that is unlikely to happen. He's a science journalist. But sometimes science journalists are still better than scientists at writing for the general public. He is also a former science writer for the New York Times. Here is another review of his book in the New York Review of Books: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/jun/05/stretch-genes/?insrc=toc > From: debbiekennett@gmail.com > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2014 00:07:22 +0100 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > I'm not familiar with either of those books but they are somewhat > irrelevant. The point remains that science is advanced by publication in > peer-reviewed scientific journals not by publishing books. I will reserve > judgement on Nicholas Wade until such time as he is able to publish his > "research" in a legitimate scientific journal but I'm not going to waste my > time reading his pseudoscientific book. > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kimel > Sent: 28 June 2014 22:52 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > If we depended on academicians, we would still be reading Margaret Meads' > "Coming of Age in Samoa", and Stephen J. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man, " > both of which were complete scientific frauds. > > As I say, read Wade's book yourself, and make your own judgement. > > Dan > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

>From what I understand the central thesis of Wade's book is that there is a "biological" basis for "race" when in fact genetics shows us the complete opposite. The book is essentially storytelling not science. The author is a journalist not an academic scientist. Try reading this paper "Human Races: Classifying People vs Understanding Diversity" by Guido Barbujani: http://www2.webmatic.it/workO/s/113/pr-465-file_it-Current%20Genomics%204.pd f Who's Charlie Rose? Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 28 June 2014 22:11 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book What are some of the points where Wade is completely wrong? I'll keep my eye out for them as I read further through his book. I sensed last night from the look on Charlie Rose's face and his overall body language as he interviewed Wade that there would be some strong reactions to the recommendation to read the book from some circles. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

Someone can be provocative and interesting but still be completely wrong. I'd rather not let someone like Nicholas Wade have my money. If his theories have any credibility he would be publishing in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kimel Sent: 28 June 2014 21:52 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Wade's book is interesting because it is so provocative. Read it and make your own judgement, rather than listen to what some guru says.

Nicholas Wade's provocative and unscientific book has been heavily criticised by geneticists. I recommend reading Jennifer Raff's excellent blog post on the subject: http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/05/21/nicholas-wade-and-race-building-a-sci entific-facade/ In case the link breaks here is a TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/l9oy6h4 There is also a very good article by Michael Eisen: http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=1609 Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 28 June 2014 20:03 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Now that many in this hobby are dipping their toes into acquisition of full genome measurements covering all the autosomal chromosomes, there is a book I recommend. A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race, and Human History by Nicholas Wade. Enjoy!

Debbie, Thanks for sounding the alarm. Jim On Jun 28, 2014, at 1:40 PM, "Debbie Kennett" <debbiekennett@gmail.com> wrote: > Nicholas Wade's provocative and unscientific book has been heavily > criticised by geneticists. > > I recommend reading Jennifer Raff's excellent blog post on the subject: > > http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/05/21/nicholas-wade-and-race-building-a-sci > entific-facade/ > > In case the link breaks here is a TinyURL: > > http://tinyurl.com/l9oy6h4 > > There is also a very good article by Michael Eisen: > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=1609 > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth > Nordtvedt > Sent: 28 June 2014 20:03 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > Now that many in this hobby are dipping their toes into acquisition of full > genome measurements covering all the autosomal chromosomes, there is a book > I recommend. > > A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race, and Human History by Nicholas Wade. > > Enjoy! > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Merely part of the process of teasing out the scientific (objective) truth. ... T.J. White On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Debbie Kennett <debbiekennett@gmail.com> wrote: > Spencer Wells is effectively a salesman for the Genographic Project, and > the > The Journey of Man was a marketing tool but that was storytelling not > science. As far as I'm aware the Genographic Project have never published a > scientific paper with a claim that R1b is associated with Cro-Magnon man. > Not all scientists know what they're talking about and there are inevitably > many bad papers published. > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Matthew > Simonds > Sent: 29 June 2014 1:03 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > Last year I watched Spencer Wells' documentary, The Journey of Man, in > which > he was saying that haplogroup R1b was one of the oldest in Europe and that > they are descended from Cro-Magnon man. But this does not look very likely > any more even though Wells is a scientist instead of being a science > journalist. So I don't think that all scientists always know what they are > talking about or that what science journalists write is all > "pseudoscience". > > > Spencer Wells: "Men belonging to Haplogroup R1b are direct descendants of > the Cro-Magnon people who, beginning 30,000 years ago, dominated the human > expansion into Europe and heralded the demise of the Neanderthal species," > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- "All forces have been steadily employ’d to complete and delight me. ..." Walt Whitman, "Leaves of Grass," 14, line 1165

If we depended on academicians, we would still be reading Margaret Meads' "Coming of Age in Samoa", and Stephen J. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man, " both of which were complete scientific frauds. As I say, read Wade's book yourself, and make your own judgement. Dan s On 6/28/2014 5:21 PM, Debbie Kennett wrote: > >From what I understand the central thesis of Wade's book is that there is a > "biological" basis for "race" when in fact genetics shows us the complete > opposite. The book is essentially storytelling not science. The author is a > journalist not an academic scientist. > > Try reading this paper "Human Races: Classifying People vs Understanding > Diversity" by Guido Barbujani: > > http://www2.webmatic.it/workO/s/113/pr-465-file_it-Current%20Genomics%204.pd > f > > Who's Charlie Rose? > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth > Nordtvedt > Sent: 28 June 2014 22:11 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > What are some of the points where Wade is completely wrong? I'll keep my > eye out for them as I read further through his book. > > I sensed last night from the look on Charlie Rose's face and his overall > body language as he interviewed Wade that there would be some strong > reactions to the recommendation to read the book from some circles. > > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Genetics shows that gene allele frequencies are definitely correlated with race and differ from race to race --- and for good reason; for tens of thousands of years up until very recently people from different locations on earth interbred very very little with those from other locations. The question for future research is to find out to what degree these genetic differences lead to variations in human traits, behaviors, preferences, and abilities, etc., and how much genetics is a factor in all this diversity as compared to influences of human cultures and material circumstances. So your ".... in fact...." is premature and asserts an answer before the inquiry. "Who's Charlie Rose" gave me a chuckle; I try to ignore him, too. But sometimes I accidently stumble upon an interesting guest he has on his show, and I tune in for that guest. >From your gmail address I can not tell whether you are from USA or elsewhere; Charlie Rose is a USA TV fixture. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net s On 6/28/2014 5:21 PM, Debbie Kennett wrote: > >From what I understand the central thesis of Wade's book is that there is > >a > "biological" basis for "race" when in fact genetics shows us the complete > opposite. The book is essentially storytelling not science. The author is > a > journalist not an academic scientist. > > Try reading this paper "Human Races: Classifying People vs Understanding > Diversity" by Guido Barbujani: > > http://www2.webmatic.it/workO/s/113/pr-465-file_it-Current%20Genomics%204.pd > f > > Who's Charlie Rose? > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth > Nordtvedt > Sent: 28 June 2014 22:11 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > What are some of the points where Wade is completely wrong? I'll keep my > eye out for them as I read further through his book. > > I sensed last night from the look on Charlie Rose's face and his overall > body language as he interviewed Wade that there would be some strong > reactions to the recommendation to read the book from some circles.

Wade's book is interesting because it is so provocative. Read it and make your own judgement, rather than listen to what some guru says. On 6/28/2014 4:40 PM, Debbie Kennett wrote: > Nicholas Wade's provocative and unscientific book has been heavily > criticised by geneticists. > > I recommend reading Jennifer Raff's excellent blog post on the subject: > > http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/05/21/nicholas-wade-and-race-building-a-sci > entific-facade/ > > In case the link breaks here is a TinyURL: > > http://tinyurl.com/l9oy6h4 > > There is also a very good article by Michael Eisen: > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=1609 > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth > Nordtvedt > Sent: 28 June 2014 20:03 > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book > > Now that many in this hobby are dipping their toes into acquisition of full > genome measurements covering all the autosomal chromosomes, there is a book > I recommend. > > A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race, and Human History by Nicholas Wade. > > Enjoy! > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I believe in peoples freedom to read,  and make up their own minds.  If everything ever conceived was subject to established or politically correct ideas I would be living on a flat earth with the world revolving around me.

I read Mr. Wade's piece published a few days ago in the Opinion section of The Wall Street Journal and found it to be a refreshing, interesting, and thoroughly enjoyable article. I believe that it was in response to a piece that appeared in the Opinion section of The Wall Street Journal the week before, but I don't remember those writers' names or the title or substance of their article. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Debbie Kennett Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 3:55 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Someone can be provocative and interesting but still be completely wrong. I'd rather not let someone like Nicholas Wade have my money. If his theories have any credibility he would be publishing in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kimel Sent: 28 June 2014 21:52 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Wade's book is interesting because it is so provocative. Read it and make your own judgement, rather than listen to what some guru says. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What are some of the points where Wade is completely wrong? I'll keep my eye out for them as I read further through his book. I sensed last night from the look on Charlie Rose's face and his overall body language as he interviewed Wade that there would be some strong reactions to the recommendation to read the book from some circles. Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Debbie Kennett Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2014 2:55 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Someone can be provocative and interesting but still be completely wrong. I'd rather not let someone like Nicholas Wade have my money. If his theories have any credibility he would be publishing in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Debbie -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kimel Sent: 28 June 2014 21:52 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended Book Wade's book is interesting because it is so provocative. Read it and make your own judgement, rather than listen to what some guru says. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Now that many in this hobby are dipping their toes into acquisition of full genome measurements covering all the autosomal chromosomes, there is a book I recommend. A Troublesome Inheritance: Genes, Race, and Human History by Nicholas Wade. Enjoy! Kenneth Nordtvedt Haplogroup I Clade Modalities and Trees at: http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net

Yes Diana, you are right on the extent of the trouble and when I figured it I wrote to the head of ancestry.com. I don't know if it was a coincidence but the list(s) when back a few days afterwards.   Didier Diana answer : > It wasn't just a few lists that were down, the entire rootsweb.com domain was > down. > > Beginning a week ago Monday, when it first went down, I pinged the domain off > and on for several days, and got no responses. What had me worried sick is that > it went down just after Ancestry announced it would cease to support GenForum, > MyFamily, and some other sites. To my relief, I started getting a live ping > several days ago, and now, as we've seen, it's coming back online. > > They didn't tell us what was going on at the time, and they aren't going to tell > us what happened after the fact. Any information as to what brought them down, > how they fixed it, and what measures they are taking to prevent it happening > again, would only aid the hackers if divulged to the public. > > I'm just glad the lists came back online! > > Diana > > > I wrote : > > List, I know several on this list have been bounced out once again. Moreover > > the list was down technically for several days. I have been trying to reach > > people from rootsweb but ALL links nd addresses were down during these last > > few days. Eventually I tried to join people from ancestry.com and it seems > > that the problem rooted there though I didn't get any detailed answer. I am > > still trying to figure out what's going on but the problem seems to be be on > > all rootsweb and beyond my head. Sorry for the recent unconveniences and I > > hope fruitful discussion can start again. Tha administrator of the list y-dna- > > haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Didier Vernade

http://www.y-str.org/ Don';t know whether this has been posted before These are pressented by Felix Chandrakumar from South Australia, Hewlitt Packard and Adelaide University. I have use a couple of the and there are a few others that look interesting that I haven't had a chance to. With BigY data they are very usefyl. BobDNA Projects I2b L415, I2c L596 HG & Tyler Surname and ISOGG YTree

It wasn't just a few lists that were down, the entire rootsweb.com domain was down. Beginning a week ago Monday, when it first went down, I pinged the domain off and on for several days, and got no responses. What had me worried sick is that it went down just after Ancestry announced it would cease to support GenForum, MyFamily, and some other sites. To my relief, I started getting a live ping several days ago, and now, as we've seen, it's coming back online. They didn't tell us what was going on at the time, and they aren't going to tell us what happened after the fact. Any information as to what brought them down, how they fixed it, and what measures they are taking to prevent it happening again, would only aid the hackers if divulged to the public. I'm just glad the lists came back online! Diana > From: Didier VERNADE > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 2:13 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] list  y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > List, I know severql on this list have been bounced out once again. Moreover > the list was down technically for several days. I have been trying to reach > people from rootsweb but ALL links nd addresses were down during these last > few days. Eventually I tried to join people from ancestry.com and it seems > that the problem rooted there though I didn't get any detailed answer. I am > still trying to figure out what's going on but the problem seems to be be on > all rootsweb and beyond my head. Sorry for the recent unconveniences and I > hope fruitful discussion can start again. Tha administrator of the list y-dna- > haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Didier Vernade

Yay ! I was missing my daily dose of Rootsweb !