To hg I mailing list: Below is a message describing the small subgroups of I-P37.2. Those of you in the I2a Project at FTDNA might receive a similar message soon. You can refer to Ken's updated hg I tree to see where he places these groups. Because I am sending this email to the I2a Project at FTDNA, I use FTDNA's outdated haplogroup names, Ken uses a more recent version but if you follow the nicknames like Alps you will be fine. Bernie Dear I2a Project members, There are four large subgroups of the I2a (I-P37.2) Haplogroup which are nicknamed Sardinian, Dinaric, Isles and Western. We are looking for new SNPs to divide these large groups and I will discuss some of these in my next email, one month from now. In this email I want to describe 5 small subgroups of I-P37.2: I2a*-P37.2 Alps I2a*-P37.2 France I2a*-P37.2 NF (Northern France) I2a1* L672- L277+ I2a2a Disles. You can see them on our results page: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults All of these groups have fewer than 10 members in the FTDNA project, some as few as two. More details about these subgroups: I2a*-P37.2 Alps This group is known from just a few individuals from southwestern Germany, northeastern Italy near the Alps, and one person from Romania (not in project). According to their 67 marker results, they are related to the I2a3-L233 "Western" group, but the Western group tests L233+ and the Western group is L233-. (Alpine, France, and NF all test P37.2+ and negative for all more recent SNPs). There is SNP evidence that links Alpine and Western into a larger group, but unfortunately this SNP (L624) does not work very well. I2a*-P37.2 France This group is found in many countries but the center of distribution is France and surrounding countries. All other I2a groups usually have the marker value DYS388=13, 14 or 15, but I2a*-France has 9. There are several new SNPs that need to be tested in this group, maybe we will find that I2a*-France shares an ancient connection with I2a1 "Sardinian" or I2a2 "Dinaric, Disles and Isles" for example. I2a*-P37.2 NF (Northern France) This group is not closely related to the I2a*-France group. There are only two known families in the group, one is from Normandy in northwestern France, and one is from Luxembourg which borders northeastern France. The two families are very distantly related, and we are looking for more members of this group. I2a1* L672- L277+ This group is called I2a1 because it is M26+, but it is very different from the larger I2a1 group. Most I2a1 "Sardinian" is M26+ L672+ L277- and has the very distinctive marker value YCAIIa,b=11,21. But this small I2a1* group is M26+ L672- L277+ and has YCAIIa,b=18,21. There are two branches of this small I2a1* L672- L277+ group, one has been found in Mexican-Americans and has likely Spanish origins, the other has been found in German-Americans, Swiss German-Americans, and one German person. The Spanish branch is also L247+ but the German branch is L247-. I2a2a Disles This group is closely related to the much larger Dinaric group. The easiest way to distinguish the groups is with the last marker of FTDNA's 67: Dinaric has the very distinctive DYS565=9, while Disles has DYS565=11 like the rest of I2a. We say that Dinaric is "young" because all Dinarics have 67 marker values similar to each other. Disles have 67 marker values that show a wider range of variation. What we call Disles might be two or more groups: one very closely related to Dinaric, others more distant. Please send me an email if you have questions--Bernie

Thanks for the update Ken. Maybe next month you will have to move I1 down to a new slide of its own. I don't see L707 on your tree, I think we have shown it's equivalent to M26, and maybe it should also be somewhere in the M223 part of the tree. Other than that, the P37 part of the tree looks good to me. You asked if anyone has found any haplotypes which are in hg I but don't fit into any of the known ancient branches? I don't have any for you. As you know we have found at least two new branches in P37 in the last 2 years: the Tibor-Rasette branch, and the L277/L247 branches in M26. All of these were so weird we weren't sure that they were P37+. I will send a summary to the list soon. Have there been recent discoveries like this in the other branches of I? Bernie

-----Original Message----- From: Greg Matthews Should any of these new SNPs be tested for those of us I1d2? I'm debating whether to sit back and let this get sorted over the next couple of months or volunteer to jump into the fray. [[ Probably. We know very little about these snps due to insufficient test results yet. ]]

November 1 update up at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net for “Tree and Map for Hg I” Present major action in Hg I consists of: L812 dividing M223* Roots L801 tagging much of the Young M223* Continental-1&2, leaving M223-X as remnant M223* New L623+/L147+ subhaplogroup of M223 still has no boundary but probably is all of Continental-2c? L484 splits P78+ ? (we are still waiting for results) Z58, Z63, Z131 may divide up most of I1xL22. Will L803 in I1xL22 bust out of its founding cluster? Z718, L813, L137 found in L22+ but outside of the Bothnians. M26+ just got a dozen new snps; essentially nothing is known about them yet. I’m pretty optimistic Z58,Z63,Z131 will be big deal in splitting I1xL22. We may have some news by December 1 update. My Hg I tree is getting too crowded for one slide. Challenge: does anyone have a haplotype that is Hg I but does not fit into one of the ancient clades or branches not known already? Ken

Should any of these new SNPs be tested for those of us I1d2? I'm debating whether to sit back and let this get sorted over the next couple of months or volunteer to jump into the fray. On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > Do you mean Z718? > > -----Original Message----- > From: T T > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 12:10 PM > To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L718 below L22 in I1 > > I'm I1d* (L22+). Just ordered L718 at FTDNA. > > My FTDNA kit is N93850 > y-search: TEKVZ > > Are there any other suggestions concerning additional SNP tests? Is it > reasonable for me to run L137 or L813? As I understand, these two SNPs are > confined to ultra-Norse subclade which is a subdivision of my Norse clade, > but I'm outside of it. Is my reasoning correct? > > Thanks in advance, > =Taras= > > From:Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:29 PM > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L718 below L22 in I1 > In the huge message about a dozen new SNPs in I1xL22, I did not mention the > new SNP L718 in L22+ > > This SNP is not part of the Bothnian sector of L22+. So basic I1d L22+ > folks might want to try L718 to see if it carves out a new part of L22+ > I don’t yet know how L718 relates to P109? > >

Do you mean Z718? -----Original Message----- From: T T Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 12:10 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L718 below L22 in I1 I'm I1d* (L22+). Just ordered L718 at FTDNA. My FTDNA kit is N93850 y-search: TEKVZ Are there any other suggestions concerning additional SNP tests? Is it reasonable for me to run L137 or L813? As I understand, these two SNPs are confined to ultra-Norse subclade which is a subdivision of my Norse clade, but I'm outside of it. Is my reasoning correct? Thanks in advance, =Taras= From:Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:29 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] L718 below L22 in I1 In the huge message about a dozen new SNPs in I1xL22, I did not mention the new SNP L718 in L22+ This SNP is not part of the Bothnian sector of L22+. So basic I1d L22+ folks might want to try L718 to see if it carves out a new part of L22+ I don’t yet know how L718 relates to P109? ________________________________ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Group, Once again, sorry, I meant to reply to Bob personally. I must remember to read the incoming addresses before replying. Wil -----Original Message----- From: Wilfred Husted Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:37 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? Hello Bob, Thanks for your message. I'll complete this miserable radiation this Thursday. Right now I don't feel all that young, it does get to a person eventually. Oh well, if it works, it's well worth it. Wil

I'm I1d* (L22+). Just ordered L718 at FTDNA.   My FTDNA kit is N93850 y-search: TEKVZ   Are there any other suggestions concerning additional SNP tests? Is it reasonable for me to run L137 or L813? As I understand, these two SNPs are confined to ultra-Norse subclade which is a subdivision of my Norse clade, but I'm outside of it. Is my reasoning correct?   Thanks in advance, =Taras=    From:Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 7:29 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] L718 below L22 in I1 In the huge message about a dozen new SNPs in I1xL22, I did not mention the new SNP L718 in L22+ This SNP is not part of the Bothnian sector of L22+.  So basic I1d L22+ folks might want to try L718 to see if it carves out a new part of L22+ I don’t yet know how L718 relates to P109? ________________________________

I should clarify "anyone" in my comment below. If you know for fact someone else in your clearly identifiable clade has ordered all three of these snps, or collectively they are covered in your clade by multiple orders, I would say your urgency to order them is seriously reduced. But isn't the general point clear after all these messages? We start with almost no knowledge about these three snps other than they split the I1xL22 population among themselves. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:42 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L802 and L803 Yes, these three Z snps should be ordered by anyone in I1xL22 --- or they can wait to see what the first batch of tests say. We start with almost a blank slate of knowledge about them. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:51 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L802 and L803 And what about Z58, 63, 131 in the context of I-ASP? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

L369=L126=L137 in the many tests so far. -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 9:48 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] What is status of L369? What is currently the status of investigating the new snp L369, downstream of L126 and L137, within M284? Have all Isles-Scottish people tested positive for L369? How have Isles-Limbo people proven to test on L369; are they all positive, all negative, or some positive and some negative? If the last, is there any geographic distribution to who tests how? It must have been a couple of months since one Isles-Limbo person was awaiting results on a test for L369, so surely there are some results? Yours, Dora Smith ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, these three Z snps should be ordered by anyone in I1xL22 --- or they can wait to see what the first batch of tests say. We start with almost a blank slate of knowledge about them. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:51 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L802 and L803 And what about Z58, 63, 131 in the context of I-ASP?

Thanks Ken. From: Kenneth Nordtvedt I think that does it! This dna has the L147- result, and the 9 at 532, so it makes L623 too much of a long shot I think to do. -----Original Message----- From: Julie Frame Falk I've ordered L801 for Kit 77830 / YSearch: XX7FG (Cont. 2a). Any other recommendations for him? Julie Falk

I've ordered L801 for Kit 77830 / YSearch: XX7FG (Cont. 2a). Any other recommendations for him? Julie Falk From: Jørgen K. Kanters It seems that cont1 and cont2a is L801+ but only a few according to the FTDNA website. I know one strange I2b1-X, one roots1 and one cont2c who are negative. It seems to be a marker that defines cont 2a, butfirst when we have seen more results both positive and negative we will know. It is a certain go for cont 2a. From: Aaron Salles Torres > Meanwhile, another brand new SNP has also been proving very useful in > dividing the various Continental subgroups of M223. This SNP was named L801 > and is also a result of our very successful WTY campaign. It was originally > found in our WTY participant Rasey, kit # 69631, Cont2a subgroup. WTY > participant Mendes da Silva (kit# 150778, Roots Group 1 - DYS446=8) tested > L801- and L800+. WTY participant Games, who helped us confirm the L623+, > L147.4+ Cont2c subgroup, also tested L800+ and L801-. So far, every Cont > member of M223 (Cont1, Cont2a, etc...) has tested positive for L801. > > [[Not only is Games from Continental found L801-, another M223* from an > outlier clade has tested L801- This latter fellow is from the M223-X clade > as I call it. I think a number of clades of M223* which peeled off the > tree mainstream early enough will escape the L801 snp. KN]]

Hello Bob, Thanks for your message. I'll complete this miserable radiation this Thursday. Right now I don't feel all that young, it does get to a person eventually. Oh well, if it works, it's well worth it. Wil -----Original Message----- From: Bob May Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:44 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? Have a good one Wil. Your only a young fellow then :) Bob -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wilfred Husted Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:27 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? Hi Ken, Well, someone's gotta do it! I am 83 years old today, so I gave myself a birthday present. Hopefully we'll get some useful information from the test. Have you gotten any snow over there yet? We had our first freeze night before last. I have five more radiation treatments to go and will complete the series next Thursday morning. Needless to say, I'll be happy to have this all over with. My chest and back are beginning to itch and burn a bit. Wil Wil -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:22 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? Wil --- Always the pioneer!! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ralph, As a WTY participant, you can log in to the finch2 server and see your results: http://finch2.ftdna.com/Finch/ADB/alleleList?Fcol=1;Fopr=2;Fval=GRC006466;Sort=2 Use your FTDNA username and password to log in. The log in is case sensitive so use capital letters. If you need any more guidance send me a private email. John  > From: gamesri@comcast.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:03:49 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups > > John I ran through my WTY and did not see anything in the L800 series, what > line is it on? I appreciate your assistance. > Ralph

John I ran through my WTY and did not see anything in the L800 series, what line is it on? I appreciate your assistance. Ralph -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John O'Grady Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 10:07 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups Ralph, You are L812- in WTY. John O'Grady > From: gamesri@comcast.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:17:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups > > Ken this would not be the first time that I ordered just to see the results. > L812 has been ordered. > Ralph ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ralph, You are L812- in WTY. John O'Grady > From: gamesri@comcast.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:17:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups > > Ken this would not be the first time that I ordered just to see the results. > L812 has been ordered. > Ralph

Yeah, those little "-" or "+" are sure cute. From: Ralph Games Ken this would not be the first time that I ordered just to see the results. L812 has been ordered. Ralph Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 3:25 PM It would be a freak situation if L812 turns out derived in your clade. Even Roots is split by it.

Ken this would not be the first time that I ordered just to see the results. L812 has been ordered. Ralph -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 3:25 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups It would be a freak situation if L812 turns out derived in your clade. Even Roots is split by it. -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Games Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:04 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups Aaron I tested L800+ but did not ask for results on L800. You have my WTY results which if I am correct only tested down to L623 which came in positive. My DYS446=10 and Dys531=11 should I ask for the L812? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It would be a freak situation if L812 turns out derived in your clade. Even Roots is split by it. -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Games Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:04 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups Aaron I tested L800+ but did not ask for results on L800. You have my WTY results which if I am correct only tested down to L623 which came in positive. My DYS446=10 and Dys531=11 should I ask for the L812?