I don't know if I am typical, but I am not spending time these days encouraging people to upgrade to 111 markers for two reasons. One is that there is so much SNP testing to recommend to people that that keeps me busy. Another is that I tend to rely on FTDNA's mutation colorization, and the last time I checked, it was not working for markers 68-111. I believe that is true for both public results pages and GAP results displays. I've been hoping that FTDNA would focus on this once they roll out their 23andMe upload capability. I hope we get some good news coming out of the conference. Kirsten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 3:08:44 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why?
I'm pleased to convey news that the researcher who has been discovering the Y-SNPs in the DF series has confirmed another new SNP under I1: DF29. This SNP was identified as a candidate using 1000 Genomes Project data, which suggests that it defines a clade under I1 encompassing L22, Z58, and Z63 subclades. Z131 seems to be a brother clade to DF29. The expected position is shown schematically in the following updated provisional phylogeny based on 1000 Genomes Project sample data: http://www.box.net/shared/z8jfc4gbql7z7lnjklhh . In the process of confirming the validity of this SNP, the researcher was able to confirm the placement of DF29 upstream of Z58 and Z63. As with the earlier DF-SNPs in other haplogroups, the primer info for DF29 will be sent to Thomas Krahn of FTDNA so he can hopefully offer this for sale within a few weeks. Here are the details for DF29: Build 37 Build 36 Ancestral Derived 3626279 3686279 A G
Sharon how many markers off is your bunch on the 37 & 67 marker tests? My brother is I-205....He has one exact match at 37 a new found cousin I was able help go back further than the 1800's ...we are 1 marker off on 67. Then we have one other 3 off on the 37, and 4 others 4 off on the 37. That's it...I have 6 matches total. Only the new found cousin is a 67 marker match. 5 of us have upgraded to 67 markers. I guess I always thought why upgrade when I know I'll be all by myself??? Maybe someone can help me understand...would it be a help for the greater good of I1 or something? Thanks in advance...Carole J ================================================================== This mobile email brought to you by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Sharon Haggerty" <smhaggerty@shaw.ca> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Sent: 11/1/2011 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? I have been involved in recruiting several related people who are MS253-AS4--most of them have done 67 markers, but none have gone for 111. The results confirmed for us the relationship between 3 lines that we couldn't connect using genealogical/historical records. These are families that are Welsh in origin, but whose documentation is limited to Ireland--one of the lines documented in Ireland back to the 1600s--the other two to the 1700s and 1800s. Would you advise getting some of them to get the extended results? I note that the AS4 group hasn't been getting much attention in the discussion lately. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 12:08 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? >I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are >expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
A bunch of the I1 Z snp results were posted tonight. So far only person to ring the bell a peel his clade off is a T2 clade person; he is Z63+ A T2 now needs to do Z58 to see how it relates to Z63. All other results are Z58+, Z63-, and Z131- But T2 is a very large and old clade! Ken -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 6:26 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z58 & Z63 FTDNA has report me Z58 plus (Z58+) and Z63 negative (Z63-). The Z131 test is still cooking. That was really fast. Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
FTDNA posted my Z63 and Z131 results: both negative. I’ll now post the results to Y Search. Vic Jensen Ysearch DM35M
Dr Krahn needs a bit of time to get the primers and even more time to get the snp in the catalog. But it looks very interesting. I ordered one downstream Z snp covered by DF29 and one outside, so I'm happy. -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 5:52 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] SNP DF29 Not sure what to make of this but Greg has added DF29 to his I tree and appearing upstream of L22, Z63, and Z58. DF29 is not in the FTDNA catalog. http://www.box.net/shared/z8jfc4gbql7z7lnjklhh Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
FTDNA has report me Z58 plus (Z58+) and Z63 negative (Z63-). The Z131 test is still cooking. That was really fast. Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com
In my I2b1 Isles-Scottish McKinstry project, we have found that 67 markers added no further value to 37 markers, as far as learning who is of the same Y DNA lineage or how distant the lines are from each other. In fact, after four McKinstry project members upgraded to 67 markers, one person gained just one more point of difference from the others. My I1-AS generic brother and a nonsurname match are two off at 37 markers and two off at 67 markers. I'd say that Family Tree DNA chose its first 37 markers well, and no further STR testing is necessary. What is more, all of the distant matches I might want to compare people to only tested 37 markers, so more markers don't prove helpful. I've advised my brother, his mystery clone, and my McKinstry project members not to bother upgrading to 111 markers. However my brother and clone will probably order SNP's, for less money, when we have a better idea what SNP's are appropriate, or, better, they are added to the I1 haplotree. The fact that I'm living on $135 a week plus food stamps is why to wait a couple of months on those SNP's and see the number that needs ordering or the cost shrink in the intervening time, not why to not upgrade to 111 markers. If I had money to throw around, I'd rather pay for the testing of representatives of more McKinstry lines who have proven resistant to the idea. Others in my project feel the same way. If it were found that more could be learned from an advanced STR or two that would help me know what SNP's to order, I'd order that marker or two as advanced markers at $7 apiece, not an additional 60 STR's for an extra hundred and something dollars. If they weren't available as advanced markers, I'd just order SNP's since I'd spend maybe half the money in the long run over upgrading to 111 STR's and THEN ordering the SNP's. It is true that in haplogroup I one often knows enough from the STR's, but I still prefer to confirm atleast one or two end SNP's for any particular clade. What is more that's not true in R1b. If we wanted to return to the days of building clades on STR's, there would be no reason to put the energy and money people are doing into researching the SNP's. Yours, Dora Smith -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Hill Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 2:58 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? SNP testing is often unnecessary. STR results are often enough to infer SNPs. I think a drop off in 111 testing is probably due to the state of the economy more than anything else. -- Aaron --- On Tue, 1/11/11, dnalister@comcast.net <dnalister@comcast.net> wrote: > From: dnalister@comcast.net <dnalister@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Tuesday, 1 November, 2011, 19:21 > I don't know if I am typical, but I > am not spending time these days encouraging people to > upgrade to 111 markers for two reasons. One is that there is > so much SNP testing to recommend to people that that keeps > me busy. Another is that I tend to rely on FTDNA's mutation > colorization, and the last time I checked, it was not > working for markers 68-111. I believe that is true for both > public results pages and GAP results displays. > > > Kirsten
Not sure what to make of this but Greg has added DF29 to his I tree and appearing upstream of L22, Z63, and Z58. DF29 is not in the FTDNA catalog. http://www.box.net/shared/z8jfc4gbql7z7lnjklhh Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com
Keep up the fight. Easy to say, hard to do. Lynda > From: wmhusted@hotmail.com > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:37:39 -0600 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? > > Hello Bob, > > Thanks for your message. > > I'll complete this miserable radiation this Thursday. Right now I don't feel > all that young, it does get to a person eventually. Oh well, if it works, > it's well worth it. > > Wil > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob May > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 10:44 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? > > Have a good one Wil. Your only a young fellow then :) > > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Wilfred Husted > Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:27 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? > > Hi Ken, > > Well, someone's gotta do it! I am 83 years old today, so I gave myself a > birthday present. Hopefully we'll get some useful information from the test. > > Have you gotten any snow over there yet? We had our first freeze night > before last. > > I have five more radiation treatments to go and will complete the series > next Thursday morning. Needless to say, I'll be happy to have this all over > with. My chest and back are beginning to itch and burn a bit. > > Wil > > Wil > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 2:22 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 13 new SNPs available in I-L160, what to do? > > Wil --- Always the pioneer!! > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Carole, it's kind of complicated! We had 13 different men submit samples, all of them descendants of Merediths (one of whom spells his surname differently) who lived in one of three Irish counties prior to 1900: Dublin, Queen's, and Carlow counties. The documentation we have does not go back far enough to prove whether or not most of them were related to any of the others, but it appeared that we could have as many as 5 different lines. The DNA results showed that two are identical on 67 markers and our documentation shows that those two are separate lines at least as far back as the mid 1700s. A third man is identical to those two at the 37 marker level--our documentation for him only goes back to about 1800. Three of the 13 turned out to be entirely different haplogroups (and each of them different from the others). Among the 10 who do show as being M253-AS4, the variability ranges from a genetic distance of 0 to 7. There doesn't seem to be anything there to help us sort out which are more closely related, as the DNA variability doesn't really fit with what we know from the records--maybe 68 to 111 will shed further light? Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carole 55066" <carole55066@cfl.rr.com> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? > Sharon how many markers off is your bunch on the 37 & 67 marker tests? My > brother is I-205....He has one exact match at 37 a new found cousin I was > able help go back further than the 1800's ...we are 1 marker off on 67. > Then we have one other 3 off on the 37, and 4 others 4 off on the 37. > That's it...I have 6 matches total. Only the new found cousin is a 67 > marker match. 5 of us have upgraded to 67 markers. I guess I always > thought why upgrade when I know I'll be all by myself??? Maybe someone > can help me understand...would it be a help for the greater good of I1 or > something? > Thanks in advance...Carole J > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Sharon Haggerty" <smhaggerty@shaw.ca> > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Sent: 11/1/2011 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? > > I have been involved in recruiting several related people who are > M253-AS4--most of them have done 67 markers, but none have gone for 111. > The results confirmed for us the relationship between 3 lines that we > couldn't connect using genealogical/historical records. These are families > that are Welsh in origin, but whose documentation is limited to > Ireland--one > of the lines documented in Ireland back to the 1600s--the other two to the > 1700s and 1800s. Would you advise getting some of them to get the extended > results? I note that the AS4 group hasn't been getting much attention in > the > discussion lately. > > Sharon
Good; And I'm preparing a new 111 STR modal spreadsheet for the clades of haplogroup I -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Haggerty Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 4:08 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? OK--I just ordered a 68-111 extension for one AS4 participant--Family Tree Kit # 192491
OK--I just ordered a 68-111 extension for one AS4 participant--Family Tree Kit # 192491 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? >I try to collect all haplogroup I 68-111 extensions, and I can't see an AS4 > in my collection. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sharon Haggerty > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:54 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? > > I have been involved in recruiting several related people who are > MS253-AS4--most of them have done 67 markers, but none have gone for 111. > The results confirmed for us the relationship between 3 lines that we > couldn't connect using genealogical/historical records. These are families > that are Welsh in origin, but whose documentation is limited to > Ireland--one > of the lines documented in Ireland back to the 1600s--the other two to the > 1700s and 1800s. Would you advise getting some of them to get the extended > results? I note that the AS4 group hasn't been getting much attention in > the > discussion lately. > > Sharon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> > To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 12:08 PM > Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? > > >>I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are >>expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why? > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
I try to collect all haplogroup I 68-111 extensions, and I can't see an AS4 in my collection. -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Haggerty Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:54 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? I have been involved in recruiting several related people who are MS253-AS4--most of them have done 67 markers, but none have gone for 111. The results confirmed for us the relationship between 3 lines that we couldn't connect using genealogical/historical records. These are families that are Welsh in origin, but whose documentation is limited to Ireland--one of the lines documented in Ireland back to the 1600s--the other two to the 1700s and 1800s. Would you advise getting some of them to get the extended results? I note that the AS4 group hasn't been getting much attention in the discussion lately. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 12:08 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? >I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are >expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Ken, I already had all but ten of the STRs from other sources, DNA-F and EA! Wil -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 1:08 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
FTDNA coloring for what purpose? I could never see any. Given the way we are adding to our snp list, we are far far away from snps being able to replace extended STR haplotypes in learning about the "time" of events in the tree. I hope that is realized in the focus to snps. -----Original Message----- From: dnalister@comcast.net I tend to rely on FTDNA's mutation colorization, and the last time I checked, it was not working for markers 68-111. I believe that is true for both public results pages and GAP results displays. Kirsten ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why?
I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why?
I have been involved in recruiting several related people who are MS253-AS4--most of them have done 67 markers, but none have gone for 111. The results confirmed for us the relationship between 3 lines that we couldn't connect using genealogical/historical records. These are families that are Welsh in origin, but whose documentation is limited to Ireland--one of the lines documented in Ireland back to the 1600s--the other two to the 1700s and 1800s. Would you advise getting some of them to get the extended results? I note that the AS4 group hasn't been getting much attention in the discussion lately. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 12:08 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 over the cliff? >I have noticed a strong drop in rate of haplogroup I people who are >expanding haplotypes to 111 markers? Anybody have any theory why?
Ken, I agree with what you write. My purpose in writing my summary was to show the need for testing additional SNPs or extended haplotypes in these 5 small groups: I am trying to solicit donations from people in other groups of I-P37.2. Your hg I tree based on STRs is the best thing we have but we will eventually confirm or modify it based on SNPs. Most of the new SNPs have not been tested at all in I2a1*-F aka I2a*-France. If we are doing a WTY for this group eventually, maybe we can wait for that. We ordered a L343 test several weeks ago, but there was a mixup and the lab had no DNA sample for the person, it will be 6 weeks or more until we get results. Not tested for I2a1*-F yet are: L624, L673, L707, maybe a derived result is unlikely but they should be tested eventually if we don't find a connection with M423/L343. One error in my original email: it should read "but the Western group tests L233+ and the ALPINE group is L233-" in the paragraph below--Bernie I2a*-P37.2 Alps This group is known from just a few individuals from southwestern Germany, northeastern Italy near the Alps, and one person from Romania (not in project). According to their 67 marker results, they are related to the I2a3-L233 "Western" group, but the Western group tests L233+ and the Western group is L233-. (Alpine, France, and NF all test P37.2+ and negative for all more recent SNPs). There is SNP evidence that links Alpine and Western into a larger group, but unfortunately this SNP (L624) does not work very well.
[[ My take on a few clades is different. See below KN ]] -----Original Message----- From: Bernie Cullen I2a*-P37.2 France This group is found in many countries but the center of distribution is France and surrounding countries. All other I2a groups usually have the marker value DYS388=13, 14 or 15, but I2a*-France has 9. There are several new SNPs that need to be tested in this group, maybe we will find that I2a*-France shares an ancient connection with I2a1 "Sardinian" or I2a2 "Dinaric, Disles and Isles" for example. [[What new snps other than that bunch 1000 Genomes says is from M26+ region? I2a1*-F on basis of extended haplotypes is significantly closer to Dinaric and Isles, and there are no untested snps at the moment from that sector. KN ]] I2a*-P37.2 NF (Northern France) This group is not closely related to the I2a*-France group. [[But it is closest to it and Dinaric and Isles by extended haplotype, rather than Western or M26+; albeit "closest" still meaning very anciently connected. KN ]] There are only two known families in the group, one is from Normandy in northwestern France, and one is from Luxembourg which borders northeastern France. The two families are very distantly related, and we are looking for more members of this group. I2a2a Disles This group is closely related to the much larger Dinaric group. The easiest way to distinguish the groups is with the last marker of FTDNA's 67: Dinaric has the very distinctive DYS565=9, while Disles has DYS565=11 like the rest of I2a. We say that Dinaric is "young" because all Dinarics have 67 marker values similar to each other. Disles have 67 marker values that show a wider range of variation. What we call Disles might be two or more groups: one very closely related to Dinaric, others more distant [[What evidence is there for this? My population of Disles shows no bifurcation; and its tmrca estimate is 3300 years. The node age BETWEEN Disles and Dinaric is much older than either Disles or Dinaric ages, being around 6000 years. But I see no outliers branching off from back then. KN ]]. [[ An important characteristic of Disles is its geographical location. It comes overwhelmingly from British Isles and not Eastern Europe as Dinaric is strongly centered. KN ]]