It suggests none of these snps will be useful to divide I1. Instead they will be either phyloequivalent to M253 or maybe even M170 which tags all of I The ancestral branch line going back from the I1 MRCA to the junction of the I1 branch line with the I2 is 16,000 years. That line should contain many snps. -----Original Message----- From: lambeth@tadaust.org.au Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 5:56 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L841-L848 Ken, You say : *" So, in summary, it looks like five are approximately with M253 et al., while three (L844, L846, and L847) are older."* So, do you think that this expands the geographical vista for Hg I1 (M253) AS generic ? Patrick Holland. On 11/7/2011 8:13 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > So, in summary, it looks like five are approximately with M253 et al., > while three (L844, L846, and L847) are older. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The equivocation is due to two factors: 1. I don't want to discourage independent analysis of the data. It is easy to make mistakes with stuff like this, and I'm as susceptible to human error as anyone else. In other words, I'm not the final word and I don't want to convey the idea that I am. In fact, it would be great if one or two (or more) people with interest in Hg-I could learn how to explore and analyze the 1000 Genomes Project data, so you don't need to rely on me in the future. Several of us on DNA-Forums have tried to document the tools that we've used, but if there are questions beyond that, I'm sure myself or someone else can answer in a timely manner. 2. The data are not error-proof, and results can be misleading as we saw with Z77. Hence the verbiage like "the data seem to suggest". Samples from all the groups you mention (Z58+, Z63+, Z131+, and L22+) seem to be L840+. I'll take a look at L841-L848 now... On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: G. Magoon > I took a quick look at the 1000 Genomes Project data at this site (build 37 > position 20834703), and it suggests that L840 is likely approximately with > the SNPs (like M253) that define I1 (i.e. upstream of L22, Z58, Z63, Z131, > DF29). I2 samples seem to be L840-. > > [["suggests"? Are you seeing some Z58+ or Z63+ or Z131+ as being L840+ and > L22- ? That's the bottom line. Why are 1000 Genomes observations so often > equivocal and just suggestions? > > Unfortunately we seem to have no I1xL22 order for the WTY in the pipeline > as > far as I can see. Otherwise, such a new WTY with coverage as extensive as > that which found L480 would answer the question. KN ]] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Many thanks. This could save lots of redundant tests. Ken -----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 4:32 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L841-L848 Here's my analysis of L841-L848 based on 1000 Genomes Project data: L841: build 37 position 14071004; Z131 and DF29 seem to be L841+; I2 seems to be L841-, so I expect it to be approx. with M253 et al. L842: build 37 position 16392707; Z131 and DF29 seem to be L842+; I2 seems to be L842-, so I expect it to be approx. with M253 et al. L843: build 37 position 23303290; Z131 and DF29 seem to be L843+; I2 seems to be L843-, so I expect it to be approx. with M253 et al. L844: build 37 position 2884029; Z131 and DF29 and I2 all seem to be L844+ (though some of the results are somewhat ambiguous...probably in a region that is similar to other parts of the genome, causing read mapping issues); I haven't looked at others like Hg-J samples to see how far back this may be L845: build 37 position 7652844; Z131 and DF29 seem to be L845+; I2 seems to be L845-, so I expect it to be approx. with M253 et al. L846: build 37 position 7856500; Z131 and DF29 and I2 all seem to be L846+; I haven't looked at others like Hg-J samples to see how far back this may be L847: build 37 position 23154034; Z131 and DF29 and I2 all seem to be L847+; I haven't looked at others like Hg-J samples to see how far back this may be; (for some reason this site wasn't listed in my multi-sample VCF file for Hg-I, possibly due to excessive read depth, but it was called as a variant in many of my single-sample VCF files) L848: build 37 position 23302117; Z131 and DF29 seem to be L848+; I2 seems to be L848-, so I expect it to be approx. with M253 et al. So, in summary, it looks like five are approximately with M253 et al., while three (L844, L846, and L847) are older. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: G. Magoon > I took a quick look at the 1000 Genomes Project data at this site (build > 37 > position 20834703), and it suggests that L840 is likely approximately with > the SNPs (like M253) that define I1 (i.e. upstream of L22, Z58, Z63, Z131, > DF29). I2 samples seem to be L840-. > > [[While I don't know what terms like "suggest" and "likely approximately" > mean in the context of your message, the new WTY from L22+ is said to be > derived for L841 to L848 as well. > > L841 to L848 were previously seen in a L22- L338+ person's private > unpublished WTY according to FTDNA; that's why the recent public WTY does > not call L841 to L848 "new" snps. What does 1000 Genomes data suggest > with > regard to these snps? > > Upstream or downstream from Z131 and DF29? > > Ken ]] > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Who are we relying on to find the occult SNPs we are looking for to expand our Hg I1 (M253) AS generic (aka ) I1xL22 ? We seem to be harvesting the out put of the likes of 1000 genomes, FTDNA, Roots etc, what about the results of other researchers, for example, The authors of this article published on the 31st. May 2011 claim that their methodology is : . " ....... capable of distinguishing most haplogroups and subhaplogroups on the Y-chromosome human phylogeny in Europe. " http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/2/1/13 BTW. I noticed in the article, that they quote , " Doron Behar (Molecular Medicine Laboratory, Rambam Health Care Campus, Haifa, Israel) " , who happens to be a /Population Geneticist at FTDNA / and is their chief mtDNA Scientist and member of their Scientific Advisory Board. Patrick Holland

-----Original Message----- From: Bernie Cullen but their idea of a subhaplogroup is I1, I2a, and I2b1 ----> circa 2004

Hello Patrick, It looks to me like the paper is discussing a new method for testing many SNPs at the same time, which might make these tests cheaper and faster. They do mention the haplogroups and subhaplogroups of Europe, but their idea of a subhaplogroup is I1, I2a, and I2b1 (using the labels currently used by FTDNA). I don't think they announce any new SNPs or new divisions of haplogroup I, that wasn't their purpose. Bernie

-----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon I took a quick look at the 1000 Genomes Project data at this site (build 37 position 20834703), and it suggests that L840 is likely approximately with the SNPs (like M253) that define I1 (i.e. upstream of L22, Z58, Z63, Z131, DF29). I2 samples seem to be L840-. [[While I don't know what terms like "suggest" and "likely approximately" mean in the context of your message, the new WTY from L22+ is said to be derived for L841 to L848 as well. L841 to L848 were previously seen in a L22- L338+ person's private unpublished WTY according to FTDNA; that's why the recent public WTY does not call L841 to L848 "new" snps. What does 1000 Genomes data suggest with regard to these snps? Upstream or downstream from Z131 and DF29? Ken ]]

-----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon I took a quick look at the 1000 Genomes Project data at this site (build 37 position 20834703), and it suggests that L840 is likely approximately with the SNPs (like M253) that define I1 (i.e. upstream of L22, Z58, Z63, Z131, DF29). I2 samples seem to be L840-. [["suggests"? Are you seeing some Z58+ or Z63+ or Z131+ as being L840+ and L22- ? That's the bottom line. Why are 1000 Genomes observations so often equivocal and just suggestions? Unfortunately we seem to have no I1xL22 order for the WTY in the pipeline as far as I can see. Otherwise, such a new WTY with coverage as extensive as that which found L480 would answer the question. KN ]]

I took a quick look at the 1000 Genomes Project data at this site (build 37 position 20834703), and it suggests that L840 is likely approximately with the SNPs (like M253) that define I1 (i.e. upstream of L22, Z58, Z63, Z131, DF29). I2 samples seem to be L840-. On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > As of 11:17 a.m. MDST L840 was not available in the SNP catalog > > Anyone can check SNP availability from their personal page. Just go to > "advanced tests", the link BELOW the "advanced SNP...." link > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aaron Hill > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:09 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 > > I think L840 is already available. Such questions should be directed at > FTDNA. I would think the time frame is highly variable. > > http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx > > > From: M Robards > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:56 AM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 > > > > So how long does it usually take to get a new SNP into > > FTDNA's ordering > > system? > > > > melissa > >

The abstract for the two papers are at http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature10484.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature10617.html but the papers are behind the normal pay wall Bob

I ordered Z63, Z131, Z139 and Z140. I1-AS generic; Kit N6262, Y-search QG86J Wim -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Verzonden: woensdag 2 november 2011 22:36 Aan: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Onderwerp: [yDNAhgI] What's a Z58+ to do next? One of the new snps in I1xL22 is Z58. Yesterday three folks were measured Z58+ and 3 or 4 more are inferred to be so due to being Z63- and/or Z131- Z139 and Z140 are believed to be downstream of Z58 by 1000 Genomes investigators. And they are in the FTDNA advanced tests catalog for order. I ordered the two last night. One fellow from I1xL22 T2 clade was found Z63+ and therefore believed to be Z58- Another order from a T2 person for Z58 should soon check this belief. Ken

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Gene Prescott <prescottg@gmail.com> Date: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 5:11 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 'When Did Early Modern Humans Get to Europe?' To: Gene Prescott <prescottg@gmail.com>, y-dna-haplogroup-i-request@rootsweb.com Six year study of 500K of recombinational diversity: http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/35877.wss http://www.rdmag.com/News/2011/11/Life-Science-Genetics-Genomics-Genographic-Project-confirms-humans-migrated-from-Africa-through-Arabia/ -- Gene Prescott Greenville, NC C. Eugene Prescott, CPA web/blogsite: http://taxtechcpa.blogspot.com/ There is always something new! -- Gene Prescott Greenville, NC C. Eugene Prescott, CPA web/blogsite: http://taxtechcpa.blogspot.com/ There is always something new!

"Two re-analyses of hominid skeletal material from sites dated to the transition between Middle and Upper Paleolithic in Europe reported in the journal Nature on Thursday have added to the debate over when early modern humans first arrived and spread into Europe, and how much of the creative invention which marks the Upper Paleolithic can be attributed to Neanderthals." http://archaeology.about.com/b/2011/11/04/when-did-early-modern-humans-get-to-europe.htm

I think L840 is already available. Such questions should be directed at FTDNA. I would think the time frame is highly variable. http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx > From: M Robards > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:56 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 > > So how long does it usually take to get a new SNP into > FTDNA's ordering > system? > > melissa

It seems that L707 has been moved back to it's original position in the FTDNA draft tree, ie with the snp list "L387.2, L699, L700, L701, L702, L703, L704, L705.1, L706.1, L707" The draft tree reflects that L705 and L706 apparently are found elswhere, but not that L707 may be as well. That is, if these snps are listed in the correct positions in the first place. However, I guess that other snps should be in focus at present. And more is gained from spending money on upgrading the level of Y-STR testing than sorting out a cluster of 10 snps. H.Styri > From: Bernie Cullen [berniecullen@gmail.com] > Sent: 2011-11-01 16:22:44 MET > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Tree & Map for Hg I Monthly Update > > Thanks for the update Ken. Maybe next month you will have to move I1 down > to a new slide of its own. > > I don't see L707 on your tree, I think we have shown it's equivalent to > M26, and maybe it should also be somewhere in the M223 part of the tree. > Other than that, the P37 part of the tree looks good to me. > > You asked if anyone has found any haplotypes which are in hg I but don't > fit into any of the known ancient branches? I don't have any for you. As > you know we have found at least two new branches in P37 in the last 2 > years: the Tibor-Rasette branch, and the L277/L247 branches in M26. All of > these were so weird we weren't sure that they were P37+. I will send a > summary to the list soon. > > Have there been recent discoveries like this in the other branches of I? > > Bernie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

As of 11:17 a.m. MDST L840 was not available in the SNP catalog Anyone can check SNP availability from their personal page. Just go to "advanced tests", the link BELOW the "advanced SNP...." link -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Hill Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:09 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 I think L840 is already available. Such questions should be directed at FTDNA. I would think the time frame is highly variable. http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx > From: M Robards > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:56 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 > > So how long does it usually take to get a new SNP into > FTDNA's ordering > system? > > melissa ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

?????? -----Original Message----- From: M Robards Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:56 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 So how long does it usually take to get a new SNP into FTDNA's ordering system? melissa On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > A P109+ I1d1 WTY today reports a new SNP L840. We must find out if > confined > to his family and relatives, is common to part or all of P109, or is even > more widespread? snip Anyway, we wait for L840 to enter the > catalog. snip > In the best of all possible worlds, L840+ would do either 1) divide P109 > in > such a manner the division was correlated with geography, or 2) unite > P109+ > with some fraction of basic L22+, but leaving a solid hunk of basic L22+ > outside, and with this division also correlated with geography. > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A P109+ I1d1 WTY today reports a new SNP L840. We must find out if confined to his family and relatives, is common to part or all of P109, or is even more widespread? Another L22+ WTY of a week or so ago seems not to have covered the site on the Y chromosome for this snp. Today's WTY report is for a person in a unique clade within P109+ that has DYS455 = 9 and YCAIIa,b = 19,20 It would make sense for someone else of this clade to be among the first testers of L840, then another not of this clade but in P109 to test for L840, then someone outside of P109+ but in L22+, etc. See what I am driving at? Anyway, we wait for L840 to enter the catalog. Incidently, this P109+ person with the brand new WTY is negative (ancestral) for the L813 found in a L22+ uN2 person. As far as significance; we won't know fully until we see how broad or narrow is the L840+ population. It is another tag to help us determine the sequence of clades branching off from each other in the Y Tree. We are now in the bushy part of the Y tree where this branching is very difficult to establish based only on STR markers. In fact, basic P109+ is virtually indistinquishable from basic L22+ based solely on STRs. In the best of all possible worlds, L840+ would do either 1) divide P109 in such a manner the division was correlated with geography, or 2) unite P109+ with some fraction of basic L22+, but leaving a solid hunk of basic L22+ outside, and with this division also correlated with geography. Ken -----Original Message----- From: John Ausman Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:26 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 I'm in that group. Could you please explain the significance of this? (to a layman!) Thanks, John Ausman --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: From: Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> Subject: [yDNAhgI] P109+ WTY found a new snp, L840 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 4:19 PM L840 at position 19294091 was just announced in a person of the I1d1 P109+ haplogroup. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

L840 at position 19294091 was just announced in a person of the I1d1 P109+ haplogroup.

So how long does it usually take to get a new SNP into FTDNA's ordering system? melissa On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > A P109+ I1d1 WTY today reports a new SNP L840.  We must find out if confined > to his family and relatives, is common to part or all of P109, or is even > more widespread? snip Anyway, we wait for L840 to enter the > catalog. snip > In the best of all possible worlds, L840+ would do either 1) divide P109 in > such a manner the division was correlated with geography, or 2) unite P109+ > with some fraction of basic L22+, but leaving a solid hunk of basic L22+ > outside, and with this division also correlated with geography. > > Ken