Thank you, your order would be good. The 4 classes were meant to be mutually exclusive, so you fulfilling just one is a-ok. -----Original Message----- From: K S Harris Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:07 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 Hi Ken and all, I can order the L840 if that's most effective. I would meet #4 below, but NOT #s 1, 2 & 3. (I see someone with #2 is on board.) My genotype is positive for Z63, P30, and M253, and negative for Z131, P259, P109, M227, M21, L338, and L22. Keith -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:49 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now in the FTDNA catalog. But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the Y Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is called for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location for this new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong before on their suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to take their information into account or we waste lots of money and time. I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative of known L840+ 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to <mailto:Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com> Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank you for starting the ball rolling on L840 -----Original Message----- From: Mudary Mudary Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:53 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 I did the L840 for 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster. Thank you for ordering the L840 test. Gary Barach FTDNA 177090 > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:49:12 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 > > SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now > in the FTDNA catalog. > > But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the > Y Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is > called for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location > for this new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong > before on their suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to > take their information into account or we waste lots of money and time. > > I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. > > 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative > of known L840+ > 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster > 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- > 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I guess I'll do Z138 then to see what's what. I'm Z139+ One fellow today did Z138 instead of Z139. He was negative. -----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:46 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Just wanted to mention: Although Z138 and Z139 are expected to be approximately equivalent, this is based on only two derived samples for each from the 1000 Genomes Project, so one could be upstream of the other. On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > Almost all I1xL22, including outliers, are Z58+ so far. Only I1-T2 clade > has broken away, being Z63+ Z58- instead. > Those many who tested Z58+ are a broad selection of I1xL22. > > What do Z58+ folks do now? Test Z139 and Z140, although Z138 will do as > well as Z139. > These snps are downstream of Z58+ > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I did the L840 for 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster. Thank you for ordering the L840 test. Gary Barach FTDNA 177090 > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 10:49:12 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 > > SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now in the FTDNA catalog. > > But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the Y Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is called for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location for this new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong before on their suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to take their information into account or we waste lots of money and time. > > I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. > > 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative of known L840+ > 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster > 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- > 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
My uN9 collection is half the size of the uN2 collection. -----Original Message----- From: ole@selmer.org Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:05 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? Larger than uN2? On Fre, November 11, 2011 02:01, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > Same as uN2 but with DYS438 = 9 > Very large clade! > > -----Original Message----- > From: ole@selmer.org > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:56 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? > > > In the I1d - L22 project he is ungrouped. What is uN9? > Ole > > On Fre, November 11, 2011 01:15, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: >> Today's L813+ is from I1-uN9. Note the 9 at DYS438. So L813+ unites uN2 >> and uN9 >> >> For sure someone from I1-uN9a should test for L813. >> >> uN9a has 449 = 27, 464a=12, 438=9, 439 = 12, 461 = 12, and 389 = 13/29. >> It >> has a more British Isles/German flavor to its geography, rather than >> Norwegian. >> Of course it is L22+ >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ole@selmer.org >> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06 PM >> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? >> >> 2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 >> from >> Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for >> L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. >> >> L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. >> >> Who should test - Ken? >> >> Ole >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in >> the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
As expected, new results show negative for Z58. Lineup for my T2 is now Z63+ P30+ M253+; and Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L338- L22-
Hi Ken and all, I can order the L840 if that's most effective. I would meet #4 below, but NOT #s 1, 2 & 3. (I see someone with #2 is on board.) My genotype is positive for Z63, P30, and M253, and negative for Z131, P259, P109, M227, M21, L338, and L22. Keith -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:49 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now in the FTDNA catalog. But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the Y Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is called for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location for this new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong before on their suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to take their information into account or we waste lots of money and time. I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative of known L840+ 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to <mailto:Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com> Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Same as uN2 but with DYS438 = 9 Very large clade! -----Original Message----- From: ole@selmer.org Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:56 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? In the I1d - L22 project he is ungrouped. What is uN9? Ole On Fre, November 11, 2011 01:15, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > Today's L813+ is from I1-uN9. Note the 9 at DYS438. So L813+ unites uN2 > and uN9 > > For sure someone from I1-uN9a should test for L813. > > uN9a has 449 = 27, 464a=12, 438=9, 439 = 12, 461 = 12, and 389 = 13/29. > It > has a more British Isles/German flavor to its geography, rather than > Norwegian. > Of course it is L22+ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ole@selmer.org > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? > > 2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 from > Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for > L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. > > L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. > > Who should test - Ken? > > Ole > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
V218 found in I2b....., and in I1, is now found in an I2a..... M26+ person. It is common to entire haplogroup I, apparently --- phyloequivalent to M170 at least.
Some brave souls in L22+ basic I1d, having a few bucks burning a hole in their pockets, should test Z58, Z131, and Z63. We'd like to directly confirm L22 is negative for all three; 1000 Genomes says this is the case, but it needs verification. These are the kind of tests one does for the "greater world community" rather than oneself. Maybe the I1 project could subsidize? Maybe it has been done? Let us know if so. Ken -----Original Message----- From: ole@selmer.org Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? 2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 from Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. Who should test - Ken? Ole ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Today's L813+ is from I1-uN9. Note the 9 at DYS438. So L813+ unites uN2 and uN9 For sure someone from I1-uN9a should test for L813. uN9a has 449 = 27, 464a=12, 438=9, 439 = 12, 461 = 12, and 389 = 13/29. It has a more British Isles/German flavor to its geography, rather than Norwegian. Of course it is L22+ -----Original Message----- From: ole@selmer.org Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? 2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 from Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. Who should test - Ken? Ole ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Almost all I1xL22, including outliers, are Z58+ so far. Only I1-T2 clade has broken away, being Z63+ Z58- instead. Those many who tested Z58+ are a broad selection of I1xL22. What do Z58+ folks do now? Test Z139 and Z140, although Z138 will do as well as Z139. These snps are downstream of Z58+ Ken -----Original Message----- From: Belinda Jacks Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 4:46 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Hello I need wisdom here. Just got the results back of kit 146456 . Nelson is positive for Z158.... any insight from this wise group? According to Ken, Nelson is an outlier. I hope this sheds some light. Z58+ Z63- Z131- Belinda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Yes, we had a flood of new snp results in I1 today. I'll do a complete report on I1 and M223+ results later, but here are highlights to me. 1. We have solidly confirmed that I1-T2 is Z63+ but Z58- and Z131- and therefore a subhaplogroup of its own right now. 2. While we just got a small number of the first further downstream snps, I am an outlier subhaplogroup of my own at the moment with Z139+ Z140- The others who took the Z139 tests were negative. I am presumably Z58+ which I skipped to take. 3. No Z131+ has shown up next!!!!! 4. Z58+ continues to dominate I1xL22 5. L813+ seems to united I1-uN2 and I1-uN9 clades but leaves out basic I1d L137+ in the I1-uN2 seems to be rather "private-like" -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 4:26 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z140 & Z139 This afternoon FTDNA posted my results. negative for both Z140 and Z139. Oh boy! For the record: Z58+, Z63-, Z140-, Z140- Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello I need wisdom here. Just got the results back of kit 146456 . Nelson is positive for Z158.... any insight from this wise group? According to Ken, Nelson is an outlier. I hope this sheds some light. Z58+ Z63- Z131- Belinda
This afternoon FTDNA posted my results. negative for both Z140 and Z139. Oh boy! For the record: Z58+, Z63-, Z140-, Z140- Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com
SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now in the FTDNA catalog. But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the Y Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is called for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location for this new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong before on their suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to take their information into account or we waste lots of money and time. I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative of known L840+ 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ Ken
Last night I read a summary of the conference organized by FTDNA. There are a lot of interesting details. http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2011/11/family-tree-dnas-7th-international.html http://www.dna-fingerprint.com/static/FTDNA-Conference-2011-WalkThroughY.pdf -- Aaron
I have added another “Challenge” excel dataset 4408, to my site http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Someone wanted to see how much or if more STRs might increase the accuracy of tree reconstruction from a sample of final haplotypes. So Challenge4408 has haplotypes of 150 STRs with total mutation rate of about .4 and with individual rates varying from about .01 down to .0001 If one wanted to compare how tree reconstruction compared with 150 STRs versus 100 or just 50, or 10 like we see in some popular books, one can simply delete whichever STR columns you want and proceed with your reconstruction. I’ll put the lockbox with tree details on my site in a few days. This is not intended to be some kind of contest. I originally thought people who have software or algorithms for tree reconstruction might want a test bed to see how their tools work in the context of bushy trees of the type which are often the object of reconstruction attempts these days. Nature, unfortunately, does not tell us the next morning after we tried to reconstruct part of it, what its Y tree structure really is. I, personally, don’t try to reconstruct tree phylogeny for the bushy trees of 3 or 4 thousand years of time depth to their MRCAs; I don’t think present haplotype tools are capable of doing this with any accuracy --- the nodes are just too close together. They can, however, do pretty good jobs of estimating TMRCAs for such trees, or interclade node ages between such trees. It will be interesting what 150 STR haplotypes with total M of about .4 can do. This represents trees hit about every 2.5 generations on average with an STR mutation. Nodes in these bushy trees are typically spaced substantially greater than 2.5 generations apart. Ken
-----Original Message----- From: cgthornton1@verizon.net So essentially none of these "new" SNPs (i.e., L841 - L848 for sure) will be of any value in further dissecting L22+ and/or P109+ folks, but is it still to early to tell if L840 will be of any surgical value? [[Probably the famous Dr. House could better diagnose this. Seriously, I think you have it about right, although if one accepts what 1000 Genomes folks say, it does not look good for L840 either. ]]
I think this discussion is best suited SOLELY for the GENEALOGY-DNA list. I am closing this thread on the HGI list. Please do not send any more messages on this topic. -- Aaron, List Administrator