I looked at this closely, because at 37 markers my brother and his clone, who are AS-Generic, have a genetic distance of 3 to 5 from Hamilton B - without looking at DYS 570, DYS 576, and CDY of course. First thing I notice is that, like my brother, Hamilton B is close to the Anglo-Saxon generic modal haplotype. Second thing I notice is that not a whole lot seems to differentiate T2 from the Anglo-Saxon generic modal haplotype. Is the most important difference the Kittler order? If so, has anyone in Hamilton B obtained their Kittler order? I notice a little bit of bouncing around in that large group; there is a 14-14 and a 13-15. Otherwise there are just three values, and a few of Hamilton B share one of them. The value of DYS 390 is notoriously unreliable. Should be 23 for Norse and 22 for non-Norse, and corresponds to what it should be only two thirds of the time. Dora -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Hamilton Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 4:03 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Cc: gah4@psu.edu Subject: [yDNAhgI] Hamilton Group B, like T2, is Z63+ and Z58- Recently reported results indicate that I am Z63+ and Z58-, like T2. I am a representative (kit 6715) of Hamilton Group B < <http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpB.html>http://www.pe rsonal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpB.html > My current SNP tested lineup is: Z63+ P19+ M253+ Z58- L803- L802- L338- Gordon Hamilton >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:10:02 -0800 >From: "K S Harris" <kharris@psych-science.com> >Subject: [yDNAhgI] T2 negative for Z58 >To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> > >As expected, new results show negative for Z58. > >Lineup for my T2 is now > >Z63+ P30+ M253+; > >and > >Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L338- L22- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think you could do Z138. Only one generic did Z138 and came out ancestral 1000 Genomes is not sure it is phyloequiv to Z139 Then we wait for some of the additional Z series snps recommended for I1xL22 --- DF29 upstream, and several downstream. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:14 AM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] What Next Ken and all: Are the experiments at an ebb for those Z58+ and Z140- and Z139-? If it were in the FTDNA catalog I'd order one or more of Z382, Z60, Z61, or Z73 (based on http://www.box.net/shared/1eq1zhbdmzhvb88yr1z4) . Any idea if any of these might be coming on line? Or is this just a time to sit and wait? Kit 154151, y-search MUZGY, I1 Project AS9b (AS16 @Nordtvedt) Z58+ P38+ P212+ M253+ L578+ L41+ Z63- Z140- Z139- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M438- M227- M21- L803- L802- L573- L346- L344- L338- L22- L211- L188- L161- M514- Thanks, Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm working on a current version, but it's not ready yet Ken -----Original Message----- From: Bernie Cullen Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:00 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is there any place to view Ken's haplogroup I modals? Diana created a very useful page with Ken's modals but most of the page is now blank for me: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.html I know Diana's page and Ken's excel file which she based her page on are both outdated, but I still think they are useful. Is there any place to find the modals currently? Bernie ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diana created a very useful page with Ken's modals but most of the page is now blank for me: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.html I know Diana's page and Ken's excel file which she based her page on are both outdated, but I still think they are useful. Is there any place to find the modals currently? Bernie

Hamilton-B comes from a British Isles cluster which for years was believe (by me) to be part of T2, albeit with some lingering doubt. I think this Z63+ commonality makes the case much stronger they are all descendants from the same T2 founder. Yes, T2 was always minimal in its identifying markers. The 68-111 markers help a lot for those who expanded haplotypes. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [yDNAhgI] Hamilton Group B, like T2, is Z63+ and Z58- I looked at this closely, because at 37 markers my brother and his clone, who are AS-Generic, have a genetic distance of 3 to 5 from Hamilton B - without looking at DYS 570, DYS 576, and CDY of course. First thing I notice is that, like my brother, Hamilton B is close to the Anglo-Saxon generic modal haplotype. Second thing I notice is that not a whole lot seems to differentiate T2 from the Anglo-Saxon generic modal haplotype. Is the most important difference the Kittler order? If so, has anyone in Hamilton B obtained their Kittler order? I notice a little bit of bouncing around in that large group; there is a 14-14 and a 13-15. Otherwise there are just three values, and a few of Hamilton B share one of them. The value of DYS 390 is notoriously unreliable. Should be 23 for Norse and 22 for non-Norse, and corresponds to what it should be only two thirds of the time. Dora -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Hamilton Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 4:03 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Cc: gah4@psu.edu Subject: [yDNAhgI] Hamilton Group B, like T2, is Z63+ and Z58- Recently reported results indicate that I am Z63+ and Z58-, like T2. I am a representative (kit 6715) of Hamilton Group B < <http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpB.html>http://www.pe rsonal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpB.html > My current SNP tested lineup is: Z63+ P19+ M253+ Z58- L803- L802- L338- Gordon Hamilton >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:10:02 -0800 >From: "K S Harris" <kharris@psych-science.com> >Subject: [yDNAhgI] T2 negative for Z58 >To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> > >As expected, new results show negative for Z58. > >Lineup for my T2 is now > >Z63+ P30+ M253+; > >and > >Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L338- L22- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I1-AS2 has been found to be Z58+ and also Z139+ I1-ASP has interestingly been found to be Z58- and Z63- This suggests ASP peeled off the I1 tree very early! Will Z131 be + or – for ASP from Pomerania/Prussia/Poland?

Ken and all: Are the experiments at an ebb for those Z58+ and Z140- and Z139-? If it were in the FTDNA catalog I'd order one or more of Z382, Z60, Z61, or Z73 (based on http://www.box.net/shared/1eq1zhbdmzhvb88yr1z4) . Any idea if any of these might be coming on line? Or is this just a time to sit and wait? Kit 154151, y-search MUZGY, I1 Project AS9b (AS16 @Nordtvedt) Z58+ P38+ P212+ M253+ L578+ L41+ Z63- Z140- Z139- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M438- M227- M21- L803- L802- L573- L346- L344- L338- L22- L211- L188- L161- M514- Thanks, Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

Hello Aaron & Everyone, I am DYS446=8 Ysearch ID TQ2DX http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=TQ2DX&viewuid=TQ2DX&p=1   I tested Negative for L812   Gary Mexico DNA Project Admin.   --- On Sun, 10/30/11, Aaron Salles Torres <sallfertorr@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Aaron Salles Torres <sallfertorr@yahoo.com> Subject: [DNA] Recommended SNP's for M223 Roots and Cont subgroups To: ISOGG@yahoogroups.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com, y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Date: Sunday, October 30, 2011, 9:15 AM Dear I2b1/M223 Project Members, Results have been scored for our second WTY participant, Mendes da Silva (kit# 150778), who belongs to Roots Group 1 (DYS446=8). A brand new SNP has been discovered and it has been named L812. We have very little information on this SNP as of yet, but a previous Roots WTY participant has presumably tested negative for it (Alfeld, Roots Group 2b - DYS446 = 9, DYS531 = 12) ...   As we try to identify the correct position of these new SNP's on the Y phylogenetic tree, everyone's cooperation is very important. So if you belong to the subgroups mentioned above, again, please consider testing for L812, L801 and V218.2. I would also like to take a moment and once again thank every project member who has helped us in our WTY campaign. Several new SNP's have been discovered, which are making it possible for us to have a much deeper understanding of the M223 haplogroup. This success encourages us to send new participants to WTY, and so a second round of generous donations is expected to start soon. No amount is too small: http://bit.ly/I2b1WTY. All credit cards are accepted, as well as PayPal and mail. If the link   above for some reason does not work, try: http://www.familytreedna.com/group-general-fund-contribution.aspx?g=I2b1   . Thanks again for your cooperation. Best regards, Aaron Torres I2b1/M223 Project Administrator

My results came back Z58+, Z131-, Z63-, so , considering the info and advice from Duncan, Ken, and Greg, I have ordered Z138, Z139, and Z140. On 11/11/2011 7:18 AM, r0berts0n wrote: > I am Z58+ and Z138-. I have ordered Z139 to help in determining whether Z138 > & Z139 are equivalent. > > Duncan > (Ysearch RVKNK) >

Good. That Z131 looks like it is going to be elusive. -----Original Message----- From: Obed W Odom Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 7:58 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret My results came back Z58+, Z131-, Z63-, so , considering the info and advice from Duncan, Ken, and Greg, I have ordered Z138, Z139, and Z140. On 11/11/2011 7:18 AM, r0berts0n wrote: > I am Z58+ and Z138-. I have ordered Z139 to help in determining whether > Z138 > & Z139 are equivalent. > > Duncan > (Ysearch RVKNK) > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Duncan -----Original Message----- From: r0berts0n Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:18 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret I am Z58+ and Z138-. I have ordered Z139 to help in determining whether Z138 & Z139 are equivalent. Duncan (Ysearch RVKNK) -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 11 November 2011 02:05 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret I guess I'll do Z138 then to see what's what. I'm Z139+ One fellow today did Z138 instead of Z139. He was negative. -----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:46 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Just wanted to mention: Although Z138 and Z139 are expected to be approximately equivalent, this is based on only two derived samples for each from the 1000 Genomes Project, so one could be upstream of the other. On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > Almost all I1xL22, including outliers, are Z58+ so far. Only I1-T2 > clade has broken away, being Z63+ Z58- instead. > Those many who tested Z58+ are a broad selection of I1xL22. > > What do Z58+ folks do now? Test Z139 and Z140, although Z138 will do > as well as Z139. > These snps are downstream of Z58+ > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4609 - Release Date: 11/10/11 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

T2, AS1, AS8, etc. have had clade names for years. I have no plans to change them. I think the AS1/AS8 L338+ was given the formal haplogroup name of I1f, and T2 Z63+ is probably I1h Who got I1g slips me at the moment. These clades were never part of I1ASgeneric. I am of I1ASgeneric, and I spun off last night as Z139+ -----Original Message----- From: lambeth@tadaust.org.au Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L338+/Z63+ Interclade Age What names are you giving these new subhaplogroups of I1xL22 (aka) HgI1 (M253) AS-generic ? On 11/11/2011 11:59 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > L338+ which consists of robust clades AS1 and AS8, and Z63+ which consists > of the robust clade T2 are both now established subhaplogroups of I1xL22 > > An interclade node age estimate for the two clades’ MRCA yields 4150 > years. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kit#10677 has ordered L840 to satisfy category #1 Šthis is a THORNTON but VERY distantly related to the WTY participant (Kit #159230). Although the Genetic Distance between Kit# 10677 and the WTY participant is 2 over 67 markers, the MRCA would be >400 years (probably more like 600 years). Kit#10677 had previously SNP tested L22+/P109+.

Recently reported results indicate that I am Z63+ and Z58-, like T2. I am a representative (kit 6715) of Hamilton Group B < <http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpB.html>http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/g/a/gah4/HamDNA/GrpB.html > My current SNP tested lineup is: Z63+ P19+ M253+ Z58- L803- L802- L338- Gordon Hamilton >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:10:02 -0800 >From: "K S Harris" <kharris@psych-science.com> >Subject: [yDNAhgI] T2 negative for Z58 >To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> > >As expected, new results show negative for Z58. > >Lineup for my T2 is now > >Z63+ P30+ M253+; > >and > >Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L338- L22-

3) has been done On Fre, November 11, 2011 03:07, K S Harris wrote: > Hi Ken and all, > > > > I can order the L840 if that's most effective. I would meet #4 below, but > NOT #s 1, 2 & 3. > > > > (I see someone with #2 is on board.) > > > > My genotype is positive for Z63, P30, and M253, and negative for Z131, > P259, P109, M227, M21, L338, and L22. > > > > Keith > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth > Nordtvedt > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:49 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 > > > > SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now in > the FTDNA catalog. > > > > But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the Y > Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is called > for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location for this > new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong before on their > suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to take their > information into account or we waste lots of money and time. > > > > I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. > > > > 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative > of known L840+ > > 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster > > 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- > > 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ > > > > Ken > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > <mailto:Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com> > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message >

Larger than uN2? On Fre, November 11, 2011 02:01, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > Same as uN2 but with DYS438 = 9 > Very large clade! > > -----Original Message----- > From: ole@selmer.org > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:56 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? > > > In the I1d - L22 project he is ungrouped. What is uN9? > Ole > > On Fre, November 11, 2011 01:15, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: >> Today's L813+ is from I1-uN9. Note the 9 at DYS438. So L813+ unites uN2 >> and uN9 >> >> For sure someone from I1-uN9a should test for L813. >> >> uN9a has 449 = 27, 464a=12, 438=9, 439 = 12, 461 = 12, and 389 = 13/29. >> It >> has a more British Isles/German flavor to its geography, rather than >> Norwegian. >> Of course it is L22+ >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ole@selmer.org >> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06 PM >> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? >> >> 2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 from >> Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for >> L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. >> >> L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. >> >> Who should test - Ken? >> >> Ole >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in >> the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message >

In the I1d - L22 project he is ungrouped. What is uN9? Ole On Fre, November 11, 2011 01:15, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > Today's L813+ is from I1-uN9. Note the 9 at DYS438. So L813+ unites uN2 > and uN9 > > For sure someone from I1-uN9a should test for L813. > > uN9a has 449 = 27, 464a=12, 438=9, 439 = 12, 461 = 12, and 389 = 13/29. It > has a more British Isles/German flavor to its geography, rather than > Norwegian. > Of course it is L22+ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ole@selmer.org > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 5:06 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Is haplogroup I1d5 (L813+) born today? > > 2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 from > Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for > L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. > > L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. > > Who should test - Ken? > > Ole > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message >

2 weeks ago L813 was found derived in a WTY for kit 180647. He is uN2 from Denmark and today another uN2 from Norway was found derived for L813. A P109+ and an uN was found ancestral for L813. L137 seems to be privatelike as the other L813+ was ancestral for L137. Who should test - Ken? Ole

L338+ which consists of robust clades AS1 and AS8, and Z63+ which consists of the robust clade T2 are both now established subhaplogroups of I1xL22 An interclade node age estimate for the two clades’ MRCA yields 4150 years.

Just wanted to mention: Although Z138 and Z139 are expected to be approximately equivalent, this is based on only two derived samples for each from the 1000 Genomes Project, so one could be upstream of the other. On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > Almost all I1xL22, including outliers, are Z58+ so far. Only I1-T2 clade > has broken away, being Z63+ Z58- instead. > Those many who tested Z58+ are a broad selection of I1xL22. > > What do Z58+ folks do now? Test Z139 and Z140, although Z138 will do as > well as Z139. > These snps are downstream of Z58+ > > Ken