From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:29 PM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Heresay and Message ettiquette Heresay is most often rejected from court proceedings, and probably for the better. In our messages there can be worse than heresay, there is often purposeful or random editing of second and third hand comments left in a thread, making the heresay a piece of cosmic noise but usually connected with some alleged author. . It is getting out of hand. If one is replying to B, I really think pieces of earlier messages by C, D, ...... should be totally erased. We all have an erase button and should probably use it more often and extensively when entering a thread. Anyway, I’m going to try to keep this in mind and I hope others do as well.

Sean, Same request to you --- don't regurgitate a message with my name alleging to write something I never wrote. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Staats Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:59 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Y-DNA Haplotype in Subject Line, Please I agree with Dora that posting the SNPs in the subject line makes the most sense. I always end up searching my yDNAhgI email messages for L338+ to find the latest information about that branch of I1 anyway. Sean On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 7:30 PM, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@yahoo.com> wrote: > There's a problem with this suggestion. Noone any longer knows what I2a > and > I2b1 mean. It makes more sense to post the SNP's in the subject line. > Those following them know what they mean, or catch up with them in short > order. > > Dora > > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Hill > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:36 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Y-DNA Haplotype in Subject Line, Please > > Obviously it will be difficult to do and police, so it is just a > recommendation and reminder to create well-written, succinct subject > lines. > Other than that, I am not too worried about it. There's only so much folks > can do. > > -- Aaron, List Administrator > > --- On Mon, 14/11/11, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > Unfortunately, I don't have time to follow haplotypes other > > than I2a, and I > > don't know which SNPs are in I1, I2a, I2b1, etc. > > > > Could you please place in the subject line the haplotypes > > involved? That > > way I (and others like me in I2a) could delete those that > > don't say, "I2a"? > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Why the heck did you chop up messages so that "my name wrote" is above a bunch of stuff I never wrote!!!!!!!!!????? -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 6:30 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Y-DNA Haplotype in Subject Line, Please There's a problem with this suggestion. Noone any longer knows what I2a and I2b1 mean. It makes more sense to post the SNP's in the subject line. Those following them know what they mean, or catch up with them in short order. Dora -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Hill Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:36 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Y-DNA Haplotype in Subject Line, Please Obviously it will be difficult to do and police, so it is just a recommendation and reminder to create well-written, succinct subject lines. Other than that, I am not too worried about it. There's only so much folks can do. -- Aaron, List Administrator --- On Mon, 14/11/11, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > > Unfortunately, I don't have time to follow haplotypes other > than I2a, and I > don't know which SNPs are in I1, I2a, I2b1, etc. > > Could you please place in the subject line the haplotypes > involved? That > way I (and others like me in I2a) could delete those that > don't say, "I2a"? > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Obviously it will be difficult to do and police, so it is just a recommendation and reminder to create well-written, succinct subject lines. Other than that, I am not too worried about it. There's only so much folks can do. -- Aaron, List Administrator --- On Mon, 14/11/11, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > > Unfortunately, I don't have time to follow haplotypes other > than I2a, and I > don't know which SNPs are in I1, I2a, I2b1, etc. > > Could you please place in the subject line the haplotypes > involved?  That > way I (and others like me in I2a) could delete those that > don't say, "I2a"? > > Such would apply equally when the subject is I2a. > > > [[ It is ironic this message from a frustrated hobbyist > uses haplogroup > names I2b1, I2a which are years out of date (and at the > moment are EMPTY > passed by haplogroups).  That's the problem; those > names change frequently. > > I don't know the solution; perhaps the compromise brought > forth by some a > while back --- like I2a-L147 or I2a-L623...... but even > then there are too > many branches of I2a...... now to satisfy everyone. KN ]]

I received the following message from a subscriber. He's asking that messages include the haplogroup being discussed in the subject line. If applicable, please remember to include the haplogroup on the subject line. For example, I1 or I2a. Of course, for many of these newly discover SNPs, we don't quite know where some of them delineate. -- Aaron, List Administrator --- On Mon, 14/11/11, Kent Bishop <wkentbishop@gmail.com> wrote: From: Kent Bishop <wkentbishop@gmail.com> Subject: Y-DNA Haplotype in Subject Line, Please To: knordtvedt@bresnan.net, aaronjhill@yahoo.co.uk Date: Monday, 14 November, 2011, 13:12 Aaron Hill, Ken Nordtvedt:   Unfortunately, I don't have time to follow haplotypes other than I2a, and I don't know which SNPs are in I1, I2a, I2b1, etc.      Could you please place in the subject line the haplotypes involved?  That way I (and others like me in I2a) could delete those that don't say, "I2a"?   Such would apply equally when the subject is I2a.   Thanks, Kent

There's a problem with this suggestion. Noone any longer knows what I2a and I2b1 mean. It makes more sense to post the SNP's in the subject line. Those following them know what they mean, or catch up with them in short order. Dora -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Hill Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:36 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Y-DNA Haplotype in Subject Line, Please Obviously it will be difficult to do and police, so it is just a recommendation and reminder to create well-written, succinct subject lines. Other than that, I am not too worried about it. There's only so much folks can do. -- Aaron, List Administrator --- On Mon, 14/11/11, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > > Unfortunately, I don't have time to follow haplotypes other > than I2a, and I > don't know which SNPs are in I1, I2a, I2b1, etc. > > Could you please place in the subject line the haplotypes > involved?  That > way I (and others like me in I2a) could delete those that > don't say, "I2a"? >

-----Original Message----- Unfortunately, I don't have time to follow haplotypes other than I2a, and I don't know which SNPs are in I1, I2a, I2b1, etc. Could you please place in the subject line the haplotypes involved? That way I (and others like me in I2a) could delete those that don't say, "I2a"? Such would apply equally when the subject is I2a. [[ It is ironic this message from a frustrated hobbyist uses haplogroup names I2b1, I2a which are years out of date (and at the moment are EMPTY passed by haplogroups). That's the problem; those names change frequently. I don't know the solution; perhaps the compromise brought forth by some a while back --- like I2a-L147 or I2a-L623...... but even then there are too many branches of I2a...... now to satisfy everyone. KN ]]

A snp which has been around awhile and in the FTDNA catalog, L380, has been found ancestral in 7 of 7 I1xL22 folks. It now has been found derived in 2 of 2 I1d L22+ people --- one being I1d1 P109+ and the other from uN2 clade. A garden variety, basic L22+ haplotype (dare I call it generic L22+?) not of those special clades should test for L380 to see if we can separate L380 from L22 on the “recent time” side of the great divide. If we can not, then some investigating from the “ancient time” side will need to be done by I1xL22 hobbyists. But the latter situation is more complex because just upstream of the three new I1xL22 “entry” snps Z58, Z63, and Z131 thee is a snp DF29 which may involve L22 in a non-straightforward way. DF29 is not yet in the catalog. My personal view is that checking out L380 from the I1xL22 side should wait until we really push back on the I1 L22+ side. So could a basic L22+ who belongs to no further subclade or subhaplogroup do a L380 test? The Bothnians in I1d3 might want to have one of their clan do L380 as well to cover that base. I’m not optimistic we can separate L380 from L22 on the L22+ side because P109+ seems so close in time to L22+; but we should try. Finding possible significance of L380 in both I1 and in M223+ part of haplogroup I is an example of a procedural loophole we hobbyists can fall into. L380 is an example of the growing number of snps showing up in multiple places in the y tree. This is a view of the future; we are now seeing it happen with the fastest mutating nucleotide sites. But this is a ubiquitous property of snps, and essentially it is just a matter of time before we find the multiple occurrences of just about every y snp. SNPs are not UEPs. WTY procedure is not to highlight in bright yellow when a new customer test result shows derived for a snp discovered previously in other earlier WTY test results. And they do not type out a message alerting us to this when it happens. It is up to us in each haplogroup to scan the entire alleles list results when new WTY tests are completed in the haplogroups of our interests. That’s how these potentially useful snps are found. Dr Krahn’s snp browser and Finch can also be used by the nimble to find these new occurrences of old snps. Ken

I have ordered the L380. I am L22+ and P109+ (see R2QD3). Hope that helps. John Ausman   --- On Mon, 11/14/11, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: From: Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> Subject: [yDNAhgI] I1d, L380, and fixing a loophole To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Date: Monday, November 14, 2011, 4:09 PM A snp which has been around awhile and in the FTDNA catalog, L380, has been found ancestral in 7 of 7 I1xL22 folks.  It now has been found derived in 2 of 2 I1d L22+ people --- one being I1d1 P109+ and the other from uN2 clade. A garden variety, basic L22+ haplotype (dare I call it generic L22+?) not of those special clades should test for L380 to see if we can separate L380 from L22 on the “recent time” side of the great divide.  If we can not, then some investigating from the “ancient time” side will need to be done by I1xL22 hobbyists.  But the latter situation is more complex because just upstream of the three new I1xL22 “entry” snps Z58, Z63, and Z131 thee is a snp DF29 which may involve L22 in a non-straightforward way.  DF29 is not yet in the catalog.  My personal view is that checking out L380 from the I1xL22 side should wait until we really push back on the I1 L22+ side. So could a basic L22+ who belongs to no further subclade or subhaplogroup do a L380 test?  The Bothnians in I1d3 might want to have one of their clan do L380 as well to cover that base. I’m not optimistic we can separate L380 from L22 on the L22+ side because P109+ seems so close in time to L22+; but we should try. Finding possible significance of L380 in both I1 and in M223+ part of haplogroup I is an example of a procedural loophole we hobbyists can fall into.  L380 is an example of the growing number of snps showing up in multiple places in the y tree.  This is a view of the future; we are now seeing it happen with the fastest mutating nucleotide sites.  But this is a ubiquitous property of snps, and essentially it is just a matter of time before we find the multiple occurrences of just about every y snp.  SNPs are not UEPs. WTY procedure is not to highlight in bright yellow when a new customer test result shows derived for a snp discovered previously in other earlier WTY test results.  And they do not type out a message alerting us to this when it happens.  It is up to us in each haplogroup to scan the entire alleles list results when new WTY tests are completed in the haplogroups of our interests.  That’s how these potentially useful snps are found.  Dr Krahn’s snp browser and Finch can also be used by the nimble to find these new occurrences of old snps. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Anyone aware of this project? I2a2b-Isles is a private family group on myfamily.com <http://groups.ancestry.com/> . To add content or comment you must be a member. 132 members I have just started a public HG I on Ancestry http://myfamily.com/group/HAPLOGROUP_I Bob DNA Project I2*, ISOGG new I2b, I2c HG & Tyler Surname and ISOGG YTree A Fair Deal for Members of the Defence and Ex Service Community. The march to CANBERRA has begun. Will YOU join us?

Ken, To what 4 test results do you refer? As far as I know (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2b2/default.aspx?section=ysnp) there is only one sample combining L38+ and L272+ Best, Hans > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:12:08 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L272 in L38+ > > Are we premature on the basis of 4 test results in putting L272+ upstream equivalent to L38+ for the entire latter haplogroup? > > I’m thinking especially of the Scot clade of L38+ It is quite unique and I can not see anyone of this clade tested for L272? > > A number of subhaplogroups of I have ended up having clades within or closely associated which were very early in the British Isles. > > Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111103143237.htm "We find that families who are at the forefront of a range expansion into new territories had greater reproductive success. In other words, that they had more children, and more children who also had children," Labuda explained. "As a result, these families made a higher genetic contribution to the contemporary population than those who remained behind in what we call the range core, as opposed to the wave front." "We knew that the migration of species into new areas promoted the spread of rare mutations through a phenomenon known as 'gene surfing', but now we find that selection at the wave front could make this surfing much more efficient."

But I am seeing 7 ! I1xL22 ancestral for L380, plus most of the rest of y haplogroup I I love those nervous nellies. What power; what information; as they sprinkle themselves around the Y tree ! -----Original Message----- From: John O'Grady Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:51 PM To: genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com ; y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] [DNA] SNP's overlooked in WTY? This is a VERY "nervous" SNP. According to Finch2, it is derived (A+) for E-M34, N-M178, R-M417, R-P312, I-M223, I-L22, L-M61, and J-P58. John O'Grady

This is a VERY "nervous" SNP. According to Finch2, it is derived (A+) for E-M34, N-M178, R-M417, R-P312, I-M223, I-L22, L-M61, and J-P58. John O'Grady > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:44:25 -0700 > Subject: Re: [DNA] [yDNAhgI] SNP's overlooked in WTY? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John O'Grady > Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:33 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [DNA] [yDNAhgI] SNP's overlooked in WTY? > > > Aaron, > > I read the WTY chromats on Finch2. Kit 95338 is L319-. Kit 69631 is L380+. > > [[This is getting interesting. L380+ is being called derived for two I1d, > negative for 7 I1xL22, negative in I2*, negative in M26+ and Dinaric, > negative in a L623+ part of M223+ > > I wonder if there was a switch in the calling rule for derived at some point > in the lab? Is A+ derived in all instances? KN ]]

-----Original Message----- From: John O'Grady Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [DNA] [yDNAhgI] SNP's overlooked in WTY? Aaron, I read the WTY chromats on Finch2. Kit 95338 is L319-. Kit 69631 is L380+. [[This is getting interesting. L380+ is being called derived for two I1d, negative for 7 I1xL22, negative in I2*, negative in M26+ and Dinaric, negative in a L623+ part of M223+ I wonder if there was a switch in the calling rule for derived at some point in the lab? Is A+ derived in all instances? KN ]]

Aaron, I read the WTY chromats on Finch2. Kit 95338 is L319-. Kit 69631 is L380+. John O'Grady > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:35:26 -0800 > From: sallfertorr@yahoo.com > To: ISOGG@yahoogroups.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com; y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] SNP's overlooked in WTY? > > Dear List, > > While analyzing the WTY score for kit# 150778 on Finch2, I found at least a couple SNP's, which were not highlighted in the results but that seem promising to the M223+ community. The individual mentioned above tested positive for these SNP's, whereas other M223+ WTY participants tested negative for them. They are: > > L319 - positive in Roots WTY participant (kit# 150778, L812+), negative in two other M223 WTY participants (kit#s 31781, L623+/L147.4+ and 69631, L801+) - and presumably negative for kit# 95338 (Roots). > > L380 - positive in Roots > WTY participant (kit# 150778, L812+), negative in M223 WTY participant kit# 31781 (L623+/L147.4+) - presumably negative for kit# 69631 ( L801+), not covered in WTY of kit# 95338 (Roots). > > The reason these SNP's were not > highlighted in the WTY results for kit# 150778 is unknown. WTY scores should be reviewed by haplogroup project administrators - with each + result being individually compared to all other WTY participants from a given haplogroup. > > Aaron Torres

But I'd really like to see someone from the Scot clade of L38+, the clade with 11,16 at 385, test for L272 We see in other clades of the continent, subclades highly connected geographically with British Isles and which could be early arrivers (pre-Roman) in the Isles. So maybe this happened in L38+ as well? -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:42 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L272 in L38+ I show Rawls, Cullen, Brion, Fox(Faux) -----Original Message----- From: Hans De Beule Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L272 in L38+ Ken, To what 4 test results do you refer? As far as I know (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2b2/default.aspx?section=ysnp) there is only one sample combining L38+ and L272+ Best, Hans > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:12:08 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L272 in L38+ > > Are we premature on the basis of 4 test results in putting L272+ upstream > equivalent to L38+ for the entire latter haplogroup? > > I’m thinking especially of the Scot clade of L38+ It is quite unique and I > can not see anyone of this clade tested for L272? > > A number of subhaplogroups of I have ended up having clades within or > closely associated which were very early in the British Isles. > > Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I show Rawls, Cullen, Brion, Fox(Faux) -----Original Message----- From: Hans De Beule Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 12:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L272 in L38+ Ken, To what 4 test results do you refer? As far as I know (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2b2/default.aspx?section=ysnp) there is only one sample combining L38+ and L272+ Best, Hans > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:12:08 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L272 in L38+ > > Are we premature on the basis of 4 test results in putting L272+ upstream > equivalent to L38+ for the entire latter haplogroup? > > I’m thinking especially of the Scot clade of L38+ It is quite unique and I > can not see anyone of this clade tested for L272? > > A number of subhaplogroups of I have ended up having clades within or > closely associated which were very early in the British Isles. > > Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A snp, L380, discovered some time ago in other y haplogroups has shown up derived in a P109+ i1d1 and in a uN I1d But L380 has very consistently (7 cases) shown up ancestral in I1xL22 And except for one recent Roots M223+ person, L380 has consistently shown up ancestral throughout y haplogroup I Perhaps a few very basic I1-N I1d should test for L380 and someone from the Bothnian I1d3? Any other outlier I1d might consider L380 Our basic question is whether it is exactly phyloequiv to L22 over our databases of many thousands of I1 haplotypes? Being an old snp, it is in the catalog. Ken

http://esquilax.stanford.edu/ Under Ancestry there are three tools provided Similarity (Identity by State) Ancestry by PCS (with many different data source comparisons and Ancestry Painting Has anyone used this? Have been having a bit of a play with it but am not sure exactly what it is telling me. Similarity set at 100,000 results Individual Similarity Noah 81.531% Rob 81.466% Stuart 78.276% Nick 82.196% Konrad 80.896% Church 81.921% Which I take it as my results used compared against the "team's" results? Painting This gives some interesting results and using the Advanced options tab with all set at max the marked difference is in Chromosome 1 in hapmap 2 and 3 with default setting all results are CEU or ASW respectively but with all advanced options set at maximum chromosome 1 brings in CHB= JPT no CEU and MEX and TSI no ASW respectively. Other chromosomes unchanged. The final one PCS I see that the results are being compared against different populations dependant on the source selected but am not sure what the results (% on the X and Y axis are actual telling me. Any help appreciated Bob DNA Project I2*, ISOGG new I2b, I2c HG & Tyler Surname and ISOGG YTree A Fair Deal for Members of the Defence and Ex Service Community. The march to CANBERRA has begun. Will YOU join us?