An initial powerpoint slide “Sigma for Variance” has been put up at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net which derives, based on simplest mutation rule, the full statistical sigmas for variance from founding haplotype, used sometimes to do clade TMRCA estimates. I will add later slides showing the results for coalescence age self-variance and for the interclade variance; those expressions are somewhat more complex but also have the important properties of not indefinately collapsing toward zero as haplotype sample population size grows bigger. In other words; if every one of the several million I1 haplotypes in the world today were measured and put into a database, the sigmas for their STR variances would still be hefty and about the same size as we get today using just a hundred or so well sampled haplotypes. This is because trees collapse to a founder and haplotypes share part of their branch lines with other haplotypes and necessarily are correlated in their mutational outcomes.

There was general misinformation regarding Z77. And project members were eager to discover new SNP's. It was an unfortunate mix. Members were aware of that and were very understanding. Regarding V218, volunteers made an informed decision when they ordered it. I don't find that a fiasco at all. I see it as supporting evidence. Orders for L319 are currently not widespread enough throughout Roots, in order to offer us a final verdict on this SNP. Dr, Krahn called it "unstable" and I would like to look into that. Aaron Torres Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Monday, November 21, 2011 9:39 AM From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com We have had a couple fiascos in my opinion for which substantial monies were spent --- Z77 and V218 ---  because large numbers of orders were made before the evidence gathered about the snp locations in the tree.  When really important snp tests are needed, I think it important that the credibilities of those urging such tests be in good order.    Ken

Thank Aaron, Given Ken's comment what would these tests add in my case? He has me as basic M223*. Would these two fall into a category similar to L801? Cheers, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Salles Torres" <sallfertorr@yahoo.com> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:14 AM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Ian, I would actually like to know what your results would be for L319, as well as have a confirmation of L380, as I have expressed in my previous emails to you. Thanks, Aaron Torres Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:15 PM From: "Ian Gammage" <iangammage@iinet.net.au> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Thank you Ken. Cheers, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 > Nothing to try at the moment. Another from your 531=12 clade did L812- > > You are basic M223* still.

Yes, that's what makes the world go around --- different approaches.... I counted snp tests already in the order pipeline --- last night there were 17 for L380 and 7 for L319. And we already know from other WTY chromat inspections that L380 is derived for one M223+ Continental as well as the original Roots WTY L319 is found to be negative in two other WTY chromat inspections of L801+ and L623+ people. In light of this information and the large number of tests for L380 and L319 in the pipeline already, I think caution is called for in ordering more of these tests unless one is a special case. We have had a couple fiascos in my opinion for which substantial monies were spent --- Z77 and V218 --- because large numbers of orders were made before the evidence gathered about the snp locations in the tree. When really important snp tests are needed, I think it important that the credibilities of those urging such tests be in good order. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Salles Torres Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 8:09 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 I suppose there are different approaches to this issue. I am of the mindset that if a "new" SNP is available for purchase, it's best to have it tested by representatives of the various subgroups (even when it appears to be positive across the board). At the very least, this is useful to double-check results and to create a stronger foundation for future conclusions. With regards to L319, we will never know if it falls outside of the current STR-based divisions of Roots if people in that group do not test for it. Maybe these STR-based subgroups reflect convergence and not actually shared ancestry? We've had a similar case with P95, in which individuals were presumed to be P95+ based on their STR results but turned out to be P95- after testing. Maybe individuals who are presumed to be L319- are L319+? We'll never know if we simply ignore this SNP... As project administrator, I will always encourage testing of new SNP's by volunteers. The knowledge and certainty we gain are worth more than the $29 we'd save if we refused to test. Aaron Torres Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:42 PM From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com L380 was read as + positive, derived in an M223+ person outside of Roots --- suggesting it is universal in Roots. And L319 has been read from chromats to be - negative, ancestral for another in the same Roots clade as original L319+ So I think people in Roots ordering these snps is a questionable or "long-shot" venture. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Ian Gammage Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:38 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Thank Aaron, Given Ken's comment what would these tests add in my case? He has me as basic M223*. Would these two fall into a category similar to L801? Cheers, Ian ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I suppose there are different approaches to this issue. I am of the mindset that if a "new" SNP is available for purchase, it's best to have it tested by representatives of the various subgroups (even when it appears to be positive across the board). At the very least, this is useful to double-check results and to create a stronger foundation for future conclusions. With regards to L319, we will never know if it falls outside of the current STR-based divisions of Roots if people in that group do not test for it. Maybe these STR-based subgroups reflect convergence and not actually shared ancestry? We've had a similar case with P95, in which individuals were presumed to be P95+ based on their STR results but turned out to be P95- after testing. Maybe individuals who are presumed to be L319- are L319+? We'll never know if we simply ignore this SNP... As project administrator, I will always encourage testing of new SNP's by volunteers. The knowledge and certainty we gain are worth more than the $29 we'd save if we refused to test. Aaron Torres Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Sunday, November 20, 2011 4:42 PM From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com L380 was read as + positive, derived in an M223+ person outside of Roots ---  suggesting it is universal in Roots. And L319 has been read from chromats to be - negative, ancestral for another in the same Roots clade as original L319+ So I think people in Roots ordering these snps is a questionable or "long-shot" venture. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Ian Gammage Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:38 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Thank Aaron, Given Ken's comment what would these tests add in my case? He has me as basic M223*. Would these two fall into a category similar to L801? Cheers, Ian

A public shout out to Ken: Thank you, sir, for all that you do! -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 5:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 L801 separates the largest hunk of Continental-1&2 from M284, from Roots, >From P78+, from L623+, and from M223*-X which has a hotspot at Lockheed's secret "skunkworks" factory in the desert. P95 is L801+ -----Original Message----- From: Michael O'Driscoll Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:23 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 So is it fair to say L801, divides Continental from Roots? It seems the resulting SNPs of most folks testing are M223+, L801+ M284- and P95-. I'm not making a statement, just asking a question. On 11/20/2011 4:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > No; it seems to be a tag for the vast majority of Continentals of M223+, > but > other clades of M223+ are negative for it including some ancient clusters > within the Continentals. > > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: Holmes, Ryan D. (KSC-SAD20) > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:53 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 > > FTDNA Kit #: 117885 > YSearch: JKPRK > Tested L801+ > > Is L801 equivalent to M223? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Terry, Thank you very much for the great concept you have worked out. I needed some time to really digest it, and I found this concept can be very fruitful for our understanding how I1 grew from its roots. Some my comments: 1. I think that your idea to consider 4-5 STR markers as semi-equivalents of SNPs is great. It is something what reminds me on DYS388 and DYS455 which in the I1 haplogroup have very special and unchanging values, enabling to recognize correctly haplotypes belonging to this haplogroup (semi-equivalents of M253 among SNPs). 2. I think this is a complementary approach to the one of dr Nordtvedt. Almost all subclades you have discovered are significantly older than 4000 years. Most of the STR subclades of KN are younger than 4000 years. 3. Therefore, the question arises about the links between KN's STR subclades and yours. For example, I noticed that the KN's STR subclades of my highest interest: I1P (I1-ASP) and I1AS7E are contained mainly in your subclade ABA, and some of them by ABB (5550 years ago in Central Jutland and in North-Western Norway). Several members of the I1-T2 subclade I see as BAB and BAA (5000 years ago in Southern Finland). Do you see any possibility to analyze how the KN's subclades are rooted in your subclades? This would be very interesting. Perhaps, our image of the entire haplogroup would be more complete this way. 4. Another research possibility are the links between your subclades, and the set of (probably prehistoric) SNPs, like L22, but also Z58, Z63, Z131, L338, M227 etc. Perhaps, it is too early to do this, but I am excited about such possibility. Best, Marek Skarbek Kozietulski P.S. You mention R1b on your website - in the context of I1, but I have not found any comments on R1b in your text and on your maps. I am very interested in this topic. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:56 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Tree reconstruction of I1 and I2 Using a sample of over two thousand STR haplotypes of people belonging to y-Haplogroups I1 and I2, I have constructed a tree of how those STR haplotypes are organised. Due to the randomness of mutations, such an STR tree is not expected to be exactly the same thing as the real genealogy. But it is a useful approximation. For the I1 and I2 Tree see the "UPDATE7: y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 Tree" section near the bottom of http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/ That section includes a high-resolution PDF file of the reconstructed I1 and I2 Tree, plus a medium resolution image. Terry ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2092/4621 - Release Date: 11/16/11

So is it fair to say L801, divides Continental from Roots? It seems the resulting SNPs of most folks testing are M223+, L801+ M284- and P95-. I'm not making a statement, just asking a question. On 11/20/2011 4:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > No; it seems to be a tag for the vast majority of Continentals of M223+, but > other clades of M223+ are negative for it including some ancient clusters > within the Continentals. > > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: Holmes, Ryan D. (KSC-SAD20) > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:53 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 > > FTDNA Kit #: 117885 > YSearch: JKPRK > Tested L801+ > > Is L801 equivalent to M223? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

FTDNA Kit #: 117885 YSearch: JKPRK Tested L801+ Is L801 equivalent to M223?

L380 was read as + positive, derived in an M223+ person outside of Roots --- suggesting it is universal in Roots. And L319 has been read from chromats to be - negative, ancestral for another in the same Roots clade as original L319+ So I think people in Roots ordering these snps is a questionable or "long-shot" venture. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Ian Gammage Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:38 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Thank Aaron, Given Ken's comment what would these tests add in my case? He has me as basic M223*. Would these two fall into a category similar to L801? Cheers, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Salles Torres" <sallfertorr@yahoo.com> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 21, 2011 1:14 AM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Ian, I would actually like to know what your results would be for L319, as well as have a confirmation of L380, as I have expressed in my previous emails to you. Thanks, Aaron Torres Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:15 PM From: "Ian Gammage" <iangammage@iinet.net.au> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Thank you Ken. Cheers, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 > Nothing to try at the moment. Another from your 531=12 clade did L812- > > You are basic M223* still. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

L801 separates the largest hunk of Continental-1&2 from M284, from Roots, >From P78+, from L623+, and from M223*-X which has a hotspot at Lockheed's secret "skunkworks" factory in the desert. P95 is L801+ -----Original Message----- From: Michael O'Driscoll Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:23 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 So is it fair to say L801, divides Continental from Roots? It seems the resulting SNPs of most folks testing are M223+, L801+ M284- and P95-. I'm not making a statement, just asking a question. On 11/20/2011 4:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > No; it seems to be a tag for the vast majority of Continentals of M223+, > but > other clades of M223+ are negative for it including some ancient clusters > within the Continentals. > > Ken > > -----Original Message----- > From: Holmes, Ryan D. (KSC-SAD20) > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:53 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 > > FTDNA Kit #: 117885 > YSearch: JKPRK > Tested L801+ > > Is L801 equivalent to M223? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

According to 23andMe public results for many dozens of I1 customers, L840 at position 19294091 is G positive for everyone. So it does not tag P109 specifically. This was the impression the 1000 Genomes folks had, also.

No; it seems to be a tag for the vast majority of Continentals of M223+, but other clades of M223+ are negative for it including some ancient clusters within the Continentals. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Holmes, Ryan D. (KSC-SAD20) Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:53 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Test Results for L801 FTDNA Kit #: 117885 YSearch: JKPRK Tested L801+ Is L801 equivalent to M223? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, I'm I1 (T2) and my 23andMe file shows a G for 19294091. I've ordered the L840 from FTDNA but that hasn't come back as yet. What's the best site to get a list of positions for these new SNPs? At the http://www.1000genomes.org/data site? Thanks, Keith -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:09 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 is M253 phyloequivalent According to 23andMe public results for many dozens of I1 customers, L840 at position 19294091 is G positive for everyone. So it does not tag P109 specifically. This was the impression the 1000 Genomes folks had, also. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Ken. Cheers, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 > Nothing to try at the moment. Another from your 531=12 clade did L812- > > You are basic M223* still. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Gammage > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:06 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 > > Ken and Aaron. > > My latest test results are in: > > L623 - > L387 - > L216 - > L147.1 - > > This now gives me: > > P19 +, M223 +, > P95 -, P78 -, M379 -, M284 -, L623 -, L387 -, L216 -, L147.1 -, P214 to > 223 -, S117 to 119 +. > > Also Ken you have my 23andMe plus FTDNA 111 markers. > > I hope this helps with your considerations though i am not sure where I > sit > in the tree now. > > With these results do you you suggest i try anything else at this stage? > > Best wishes, Ian > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ian, I would actually like to know what your results would be for L319, as well as have a confirmation of L380, as I have expressed in my previous emails to you. Thanks, Aaron Torres Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 Saturday, November 19, 2011 9:15 PM From: "Ian Gammage" <iangammage@iinet.net.au> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Thank you Ken. Cheers, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 8:10 AM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Test Results - Ian Gammage Kit 27192 > Nothing to try at the moment.  Another from your 531=12 clade did L812- > > You are basic M223* still. >

I 'm I1 (M253) AS-generic. What does AS-9 mean ? On 11/18/2011 3:52 AM, S & L Little wrote: > Previously found Z-58 +, just received Z-138-, Z-140 - . No more new > SNP's available, at this time ? > > > Y Search 2F5KC > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ken Nordtvedt's division of I1-M253 based on STR's. "AS-9" = "Anglo- Saxon 9". I believe he is preparing an up-dated version of the chart. On Nov 19, 2011, at 1:33 AM, lambeth@tadaust.org.au wrote: > > I 'm I1 (M253) AS-generic. What does AS-9 mean ? > > On 11/18/2011 3:52 AM, S & L Little wrote: >> Previously found Z-58 +, just received Z-138-, Z-140 - . No more new >> SNP's available, at this time ? >> >> >> Y Search 2F5KC >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Ken and Aaron. My latest test results are in: L623 - L387 - L216 - L147.1 - This now gives me: P19 +, M223 +, P95 -, P78 -, M379 -, M284 -, L623 -, L387 -, L216 -, L147.1 -, P214 to 223 -, S117 to 119 +. Also Ken you have my 23andMe plus FTDNA 111 markers. I hope this helps with your considerations though i am not sure where I sit in the tree now. With these results do you you suggest i try anything else at this stage? Best wishes, Ian

Z131- Y-search: QG86J Wim -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Wim Callewaert [mailto:callmewimpy@telenet.be] Verzonden: donderdag 17 november 2011 12:57 Aan: 'Victor Jensen'; y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Onderwerp: Re: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA SNP results My results: Z63-, Z139-, Z140-; still waiting on Z131 I didn't test Z58 Y-search: QG86J Wim -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Victor Jensen [mailto:2049507@earthlink.net] Verzonden: donderdag 17 november 2011 1:35 Aan: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Onderwerp: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA SNP results My FTDNA SNP results: Z58+, Z140-, Z139- Vic Jensen Y Search-DM35M