Being Z63+, I think the snp you might want to consider is DF29, said to be upstream from your Z63+. But DF29 is not yet in the FTDNA catalog. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Alan Bradberry Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] re: I1 east/west from Zs Here are my current SNP results: Z63+ P30+ M253+ Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L573- L523- L338- L22- L211- I suppose my haplotype is pretty representative of I1(T2). For anyone interested, my STRs (111) are posted at the I1 project website, kit N3626. As Ken Nordtvedt has pointed out before, T2 has a definite eastern flavor. Also, Terry Robb's binary categorization of STRs classifies me as "BAB", with hotspot in Finland. This is very interesting to me, but unfortunately for my genealogical purposes the furthest east my records go is East Virginia (Tidewater) where there is a brick wall with my ggggrandfather shortly after the 1776 revolution. I can fund just about one SNP/month out of lunch money, and will be glad to test another if it looks promising. Are there any further recommendations? Brent Bradberry YHSK7 on ySearch ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If you mean kit N90099, I would not call that uN2 -----Original Message----- From: Ole Selmer Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 1:24 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L813 divides L22 uN2 Today the first uN2 L813- was reported whereas two uN2 persons was found derived for L813; now there is four uN 2 with L813+ I find an unusual dys 19=15 in the ancestral uN2, but would like some experts to comment on this. I would also like some uN2 to test for L137 in order to determine whether L137 is private or not. Ole ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know there was information about this a while back, but I am embarassed to admit that I have tried searching the list archives and cannot find it anywhere. When I log into my FamilyTree account I am unable to find anything about he extra SNPs I have ordered. Would some kind soul mind please repeating the instructions? And I do apologize for being such a pest! Thanks very much! Sharon

Yes, I think kit 93343 represents another well known clade. -----Original Message----- From: alan & agnes tate Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:25 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps I am L338+ Z140+ Z139- Z138- I have been conversing with William (kit 93343) who is L338- Z140+ Z139- Z138- Therefore, Z140 must be upstream from L338, right? Alan -----Original Message----- >From: Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> >Sent: Nov 29, 2011 4:34 PM >To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com >Subject: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps > >Because of the fast breaking developments in I1 due to the Z series snps, I >have put up a tree for I1 at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net “Tree for >I1” > >This will be updated from time to time as information is developing >rapidly. > > > >Ken > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Because of the fast breaking developments in I1 due to the Z series snps, I have put up a tree for I1 at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net “Tree for I1” This will be updated from time to time as information is developing rapidly. Ken

Here are my current SNP results: Z63+ P30+ M253+ Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L573- L523- L338- L22- L211- I suppose my haplotype is pretty representative of I1(T2). For anyone interested, my STRs (111) are posted at the I1 project website, kit N3626. As Ken Nordtvedt has pointed out before, T2 has a definite eastern flavor. Also, Terry Robb's binary categorization of STRs classifies me as "BAB", with hotspot in Finland. This is very interesting to me, but unfortunately for my genealogical purposes the furthest east my records go is East Virginia (Tidewater) where there is a brick wall with my ggggrandfather shortly after the 1776 revolution. I can fund just about one SNP/month out of lunch money, and will be glad to test another if it looks promising. Are there any further recommendations? Brent Bradberry YHSK7 on ySearch

I would assume that the area with the larger haplogroup (i.e. British Isles) of genetic matches would be the older making a case for emigration into Norway. If two brothers split, one staying home, the other traveling to the British Isles then I would think you would see a similar number of haplotypes in both. This theory fails if one brother's line reproduced less than another (i.e. a farmer breeds large families; a merchant does not). It could also be that very few Norwegians have tested their dna. This is the case for my own geographical origin being the Nova Scotia/New Brunswick/Northern Maine area. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:21 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] I1 Z139+ cluster "close to home" There is possibly a sizeable cluster within I1generic which might end up Z139+ instead of the most common Z58+ Although almost all of it seems of British Isles origins, I am in it. Some identifying characteristics are DYS487 = 13, DYS385 = 13,15, DYS464 = 12-14-14-16, and usually a high DYS449>28 DYS487 is the slow mutator and therefore particularly important, I think, for membership in this cluster. I have never found any Norwegian haplotypes remotely close to mine, except my 6th cousin. Yet my dna is firmly traced back to near Oslo, Norway 1771 my means of my 6th cousin ydna. Doing a tmrca between my 67 marker haplotype and the British Isles cluster gives time about 1300 years ago, but of course with a large sigma. Could I have seen a dna clue of two brothers, one participating in the Norwegian or Danish historic era emigration to the Isles, the other staying home in Norway? Or am I seeing emigration from the Isles into Norway as merchants or clergy or something prior to 1771? Ken

Hi Ken and all, L840 is back and positive for an I1 T2 record: Z63+ P30+ M253+ L840+ Z58- Z131- P259- P109- M227- M21- L338- L22- Best, Keith

Furthermore kit 146456 has three very unusual str identifiers in the 68-111 panel. Others who fit this kit on the 572 and 406 ought to consider the 68-111 markers. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:37 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] new results in kit 146456 Yes, it peels off a sizeable cluster, I think, with 572=10 and 406=10 -----Original Message----- From: Belinda Jacks Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:25 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] new results in kit 146456 So Nelson's new result is Z139+ Waiting on Z 140. Z58+ Z139+ M253+ Z63- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M227- M21- L338- L22 Are these new numbers shedding any light? Trying to understand. Belinda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, it peels off a sizeable cluster, I think, with 572=10 and 406=10 -----Original Message----- From: Belinda Jacks Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:25 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] new results in kit 146456 So Nelson's new result is Z139+ Waiting on Z 140. Z58+ Z139+ M253+ Z63- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M227- M21- L338- L22 Are these new numbers shedding any light? Trying to understand. Belinda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No one has confirmed yet Z59 is in the line where 1000 Genomes says it is, so your Z59 test will not be wasted. -----Original Message----- From: r0berts0n Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 11:56 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Result: Z140+ I ordered Z140 along with Z139 expecting to be negative for both but came back Z139- & Z140+ today. Last week I ordered Z59 & L803 so it looks like I wasted my money on those. However the Z140+ result was great news and assuming Z59 comes back derived for me, that will help confirm that Z140 is below Z59. My full set of results so far: Z58+ Z140+ M253+ Z63- Z139- Z138- Z131- P259- M514- M284- M227- M223- M21- L338- L22- L211- Duncan (Ysearch RVKNK) -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 11 November 2011 14:39 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Thanks Duncan -----Original Message----- From: r0berts0n Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:18 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret I am Z58+ and Z138-. I have ordered Z139 to help in determining whether Z138 & Z139 are equivalent. Duncan (Ysearch RVKNK) -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 11 November 2011 02:05 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret I guess I'll do Z138 then to see what's what. I'm Z139+ One fellow today did Z138 instead of Z139. He was negative. -----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:46 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Just wanted to mention: Although Z138 and Z139 are expected to be approximately equivalent, this is based on only two derived samples for each from the 1000 Genomes Project, so one could be upstream of the other. On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > Almost all I1xL22, including outliers, are Z58+ so far. Only I1-T2 > clade has broken away, being Z63+ Z58- instead. > Those many who tested Z58+ are a broad selection of I1xL22. > > What do Z58+ folks do now? Test Z139 and Z140, although Z138 will do > as well as Z139. > These snps are downstream of Z58+ > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4609 - Release Date: 11/10/11 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4610 - Release Date: 11/11/11 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Ken ~ Z59 ordered. Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

So Nelson's new result is Z139+ Waiting on Z 140. Z58+ Z139+ M253+ Z63- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M227- M21- L338- L22 Are these new numbers shedding any light? Trying to understand. Belinda

Ken, Regarding your formula for "sigma", on the first slide of your PowerPoint - is that meant to be for a single STR marker? Or is your formula for "sigma" meant to be for the standard deviation about the TMRCA computed from a set of say 67 STR markers? To me "sigma" should get a little better (smaller) if you used a few more STR markers, but your formula seems to be independent of the number of STR markers. Also, your formula is surprisingly complex, so perhaps you could share your working. Terry On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > A powerpoint file “Sigma for Variance” is now completed at > http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net The first two slides summarize the > analytically determined formulas for the distribution sigmas accompanying > tmrca estimates for y trees under our simple models of STR mutation > behavior. These formulas were confirmed as correct using hundreds of > thousands of simulations. For those not so interested in the underlying > derivations of sigma sizes, the last three slides in > “Sigma for Variance” give some numerical outcomes or formula results for a > broad assortment of y tree types. Both some genealogical time frame > examples and deep time frame examples are given. > >

There is possibly a sizeable cluster within I1generic which might end up Z139+ instead of the most common Z58+ Although almost all of it seems of British Isles origins, I am in it. Some identifying characteristics are DYS487 = 13, DYS385 = 13,15, DYS464 = 12-14-14-16, and usually a high DYS449>28 DYS487 is the slow mutator and therefore particularly important, I think, for membership in this cluster. I have never found any Norwegian haplotypes remotely close to mine, except my 6th cousin. Yet my dna is firmly traced back to near Oslo, Norway 1771 my means of my 6th cousin ydna. Doing a tmrca between my 67 marker haplotype and the British Isles cluster gives time about 1300 years ago, but of course with a large sigma. Could I have seen a dna clue of two brothers, one participating in the Norwegian or Danish historic era emigration to the Isles, the other staying home in Norway? Or am I seeing emigration from the Isles into Norway as merchants or clergy or something prior to 1771? Ken

There is!!! Z59. I recommend Z58+ folks who are Z138- and/or Z139- to do Z59. It is brand new in the catalog. -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:44 AM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z138 FTDNA is reporting me Z138- Sure wishing there were some other ZNPs to test. Kit 154151, y-search MUZGY, I1 Project AS9b (AS16 @Nordtvedt) Z58+ P38+ P212+ M253+ L578+ L41+ Z63- Z140- Z139- Z138- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M438- M227- M21- L803- L802- L573- L346- L344- L338- L22- L211- L188- L161- M514- Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

An interesting geographical development is emerging from the Z series snps for I1xL22 The clades with a more eastern Europe flavour to their geography are avoiding the Z58 snp M227+ I1b is ancestral for Z58, Z63, Z131 I1-P is ancestral for Z58, Z63, Z131 I1-T is ancestral for Z58, Z131 but is Z63+ And so far we have found no I1 who is Z131+ although 1000 Genomes tells us there are some? When we do we’ll really have an interesting group??

FTDNA is reporting me Z138- Sure wishing there were some other ZNPs to test. Kit 154151, y-search MUZGY, I1 Project AS9b (AS16 @Nordtvedt) Z58+ P38+ P212+ M253+ L578+ L41+ Z63- Z140- Z139- Z138- Z131- P259- P109- M72- M438- M227- M21- L803- L802- L573- L346- L344- L338- L22- L211- L188- L161- M514- Roy Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

Hi Keith, FTDNA's ymap is a good resource which will give the build 36 positions after you type the marker into the search box: http://ymap.ftdna.com . It includes all of FTDNA's L series as well as most of the Z- and DF- SNPs, which are based on publicly-available sequence data (mainly 1000 Genomes Project data); we maintain the full list of these at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agq_ez43qXCjdFlxemtlUnZ1Qk01cVhMRVBFcm5WX3c&authkey=CIOag_UD&hl=en_US#gid=26 . Another good resource is the ISOGG Y-SNP index: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html Greg On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:21 PM, K S Harris <kharris@psych-science.com>wrote: > Yes, I'm I1 (T2) and my 23andMe file shows a G for 19294091. I've ordered > the L840 from FTDNA but that hasn't come back as yet. > > What's the best site to get a list of positions for these new SNPs? At the > http://www.1000genomes.org/data site? > > Thanks, > Keith >

Ordered Z59.- Vic Jensen -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:23 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z59 for I1xL22 is HERE The bulk of I1xL22 who have done the Z58, Z63, Z131 tests have been Z58. The bulk of the Z58 who have done the Z139 test have been negative. A new snp downstream of Z58 is now available in FTDNA catalog --- Z59. I would encourage Z58+ folks, especially those who tested Z139 and Z138 and are negative, to test for Z59. It would be nice to divide the Z58 population again. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message