Brent, I will post this note elsewhere under a new subject heading later. The I1 STR Decision Tree was updated a little while ago to better handle some otherwise mis-classified people. There are 2 or 3 percent of I1 people that have the mutation DYS459a=7, and that multi-copy marker was not included in the hierarchical clustering analysis I did. If it were included, then those DYS459a=7 people would form a separate cluster and be placed in a separate branch of the I1 STR Decision Tree given at http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/ . So there really should be a separate DYS459a=7 versus DYS459a=8 decision point at the early stage of the I1 STR Decision Tree. Rather than rework the Decision Tree to accommodate those 2 or 3 percent of affected people, I have thought it better to keep the tree the same, and just make a note that DYS459a=7 people should be excluded from I1-"BA*". In summary, DYS459a=7, forms it own separate clan/cluster within the I1 STR Decision Tree. The peak density of such people is centred around Poland. And that clan/cluster is associated with the Z63+ SNP mutation. Terry On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Brent Alan Bradberry < brentbradberry@cpcinternet.com> wrote: > Here are my current SNP results: Z63+ P30+ M253+ Z58- Z131- P259- P109- > M227- M21- L573- L523- L338- L22- L211- > I suppose my haplotype is pretty representative of I1(T2). For anyone > interested, my STRs (111) are posted at the I1 project website, kit N3626. > > As Ken Nordtvedt has pointed out before, T2 has a definite eastern > flavor. Also, Terry Robb's binary categorization of STRs classifies me > as "BAB", with hotspot in Finland. This is very interesting to me, but > unfortunately for my genealogical purposes the furthest east my records > go is East Virginia (Tidewater) where there is a brick wall with my > ggggrandfather shortly after the 1776 revolution. > > I can fund just about one SNP/month out of lunch money, and will be glad > to test another if it looks promising. Are there any further > recommendations? > > Brent Bradberry > YHSK7 on ySearch > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks. I ordered those tests from FTDNA, although the personal page says no tests are pending. I've emailed FTDNA for a status report. Thanks again. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:04 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps The Bowman/Lowe/Nevader haplotype I have in the I1generic collection. There is no way to know where it would be on the Z-series snp based tree without him doing Z58/Z63/Z131 discrimination. The generics are splitting up to be sprinkled on most all the main branches. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Phil Alfeld Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:49 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps Where does my Bowman cousin place in this tree? His ysearch ID is GRDX4. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:35 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps Because of the fast breaking developments in I1 due to the Z series snps, I have put up a tree for I1 at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net “Tree for I1” This will be updated from time to time as information is developing rapidly. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The generics will simply have additional downstream snps which split the overall generics population into smaller pockets of generics associated with each tree branch. What pulls haplotypes out of the generics status is to be seen part of a clade of haplotypes sufficiently clumped to reasonably conclude descent from a datable common ancestor. And sometimes the additional downstream snps will help reveal that the generics on a specific branch line are indeed closer in a variance or GD sense from clades on that same branch. But the tree will now be pushing toward the present in its bushy domain; nodes are close together and the haplotype population more and more difficult to separate into clusters without the help of the downstream snps. One of my big interests in the z-series tree is to help figure out the relationships between the robust and long ago identified clades such as AS1, AS2, ........ T2, I1-P, EE, ML, ....... -----Original Message----- From: Gene Prescott Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:23 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps I assume that as these splits occur, that those of us left in I1-ASgen will become a smaller group. If so, it seems that will also have a value. -- Gene Prescott Greenville, NC C. Eugene Prescott, CPA web/blogsite: http://taxtechcpa.blogspot.com/ There is always something new! ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Bowman/Lowe/Nevader haplotype I have in the I1generic collection. There is no way to know where it would be on the Z-series snp based tree without him doing Z58/Z63/Z131 discrimination. The generics are splitting up to be sprinkled on most all the main branches. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Phil Alfeld Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:49 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps Where does my Bowman cousin place in this tree? His ysearch ID is GRDX4. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:35 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps Because of the fast breaking developments in I1 due to the Z series snps, I have put up a tree for I1 at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net “Tree for I1” This will be updated from time to time as information is developing rapidly. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

-----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:00 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Question about AS5 and AS138/ AS139 Out of curiosity, has anyone who is AS5 tested on Z138/Z139 or Z140? If AS2 is Z138+/Z139+, and Ken is Z138+/Z139+, it stands to reason that AS5 would be as well. [[ Why? ]]

Are these people known by paper to be related recently? Or is it just a surname similarity which puts them in the same project? -----Original Message----- From: Diana Matthiesen Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 2:55 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L380 in Rasey Project L380 has just returned for the second member of my Rasey project. Their results are now, RAZEE #70816 Continental-1: L801+ L380- RASEY #69631 Continental-2a: L801+ L380+ http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Rasey/RaseyDNA-results.html#data Diana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Where does my Bowman cousin place in this tree? His ysearch ID is GRDX4. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 3:35 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps Because of the fast breaking developments in I1 due to the Z series snps, I have put up a tree for I1 at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net “Tree for I1” This will be updated from time to time as information is developing rapidly. Ken

Today the first uN2 L813- was reported whereas two uN2 persons was found derived for L813; now there is four uN 2 with L813+ I find an unusual dys 19=15 in the ancestral uN2, but would like some experts to comment on this. I would also like some uN2 to test for L137 in order to determine whether L137 is private or not. Ole

Out of curiosity, has anyone who is AS5 tested on Z138/Z139 or Z140? If AS2 is Z138+/Z139+, and Ken is Z138+/Z139+, it stands to reason that AS5 would be as well. AS2 is a very old clade, and the genetic difference between Ken and AS2 looks huge to me. I really think that more than two brothers separated there and probably longer ago than 1500 years or something. Dora

L840+ in Id ( L22, L813,L137) Ole On Fre, November 11, 2011 03:28, ole@selmer.org wrote: > 3) has been done > > On Fre, November 11, 2011 03:07, K S Harris wrote: >> Hi Ken and all, >> >> >> >> I can order the L840 if that's most effective. I would meet #4 below, but >> NOT #s 1, 2 & 3. >> >> >> >> (I see someone with #2 is on board.) >> >> >> >> My genotype is positive for Z63, P30, and M253, and negative for Z131, >> P259, P109, M227, M21, L338, and L22. >> >> >> >> Keith >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth >> Nordtvedt >> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:49 AM >> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [yDNAhgI] L840 and P109+I1d1 >> >> >> >> SNP L840 was discovered in the WTY of a P109+ I1d1 person; and it is now in >> the FTDNA catalog. >> >> >> >> But information from 1000 Genomes suggests L840 may be far upstream in the Y >> Tree and common to all of I1? So a thought out testing of L840 is called >> for --- both far downstream private-like and far upstream location for this >> new snp have to be checked for. 1000 Genomes has been wrong before on their >> suggested haplogroup I snp-based phylogeny, but we need to take their >> information into account or we waste lots of money and time. >> >> >> >> I would recommend four different kinds of initial tests on L840. >> >> >> >> 1) Someone from the 455 = 9 YCAb=20 cluster within P109+ but not relative >> of known L840+ >> >> 2) someone from P109+ but NOT in the 455=9 cluster >> >> 3) Someone from L22+ but known P109- >> >> 4) Someone from I1 but NOT L22+ >> >> >> >> Ken >> >

I ordered Z140 along with Z139 expecting to be negative for both but came back Z139- & Z140+ today. Last week I ordered Z59 & L803 so it looks like I wasted my money on those. However the Z140+ result was great news and assuming Z59 comes back derived for me, that will help confirm that Z140 is below Z59. My full set of results so far: Z58+ Z140+ M253+ Z63- Z139- Z138- Z131- P259- M514- M284- M227- M223- M21- L338- L22- L211- Duncan (Ysearch RVKNK) -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 11 November 2011 14:39 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Thanks Duncan -----Original Message----- From: r0berts0n Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 6:18 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret I am Z58+ and Z138-. I have ordered Z139 to help in determining whether Z138 & Z139 are equivalent. Duncan (Ysearch RVKNK) -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: 11 November 2011 02:05 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret I guess I'll do Z138 then to see what's what. I'm Z139+ One fellow today did Z138 instead of Z139. He was negative. -----Original Message----- From: G. Magoon Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:46 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] z test results back please help interpret Just wanted to mention: Although Z138 and Z139 are expected to be approximately equivalent, this is based on only two derived samples for each from the 1000 Genomes Project, so one could be upstream of the other. On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > Almost all I1xL22, including outliers, are Z58+ so far. Only I1-T2 > clade has broken away, being Z63+ Z58- instead. > Those many who tested Z58+ are a broad selection of I1xL22. > > What do Z58+ folks do now? Test Z139 and Z140, although Z138 will do > as well as Z139. > These snps are downstream of Z58+ > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4609 - Release Date: 11/10/11 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4610 - Release Date: 11/11/11

P109+ M253+ L840+ L22+ M72- M227- L258- 177090 FTDNA

I can't find any AS4 not from British Isles and especially Wales. But I think there probably are some. We found the first Z58- Z63- Z131- today; there are no results of any contradicting form. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 6:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs Are there more AS4 haplotypes Z58- Z63- Z131- ? Are they all from British Isles? Best, Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:24 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs AS4 of Wales shares a tree branch line right now with I1-P of Pomerania, Prussia, and Poland, and I1b also with Eastern Europe tendencies. Small world! -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Haggerty Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:56 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs Results for FamilyTree #192491 (Meredith) I1-AS4 clade: M253+ Z58- Z63- Z131- And a distant Meredith cousin #189045, also I1-AS4 clade, is: M253+ P259- M227- M21- L338- L22- L211- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:25 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs >I see no one yet from the I1-AS4 clade, strongly connected with Wales, >doing a Z58/Z63/Z131 test? > > Also, the I1-ML and the I1-mavericks are unknown on these new "entry" Z > snps for I1xL22 > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4646 - Release Date: 11/29/11 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

AS4 of Wales shares a tree branch line right now with I1-P of Pomerania, Prussia, and Poland, and I1b also with Eastern Europe tendencies. Small world! -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Haggerty Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:56 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs Results for FamilyTree #192491 (Meredith) I1-AS4 clade: M253+ Z58- Z63- Z131- And a distant Meredith cousin #189045, also I1-AS4 clade, is: M253+ P259- M227- M21- L338- L22- L211- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:25 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs >I see no one yet from the I1-AS4 clade, strongly connected with Wales, >doing a Z58/Z63/Z131 test? > > Also, the I1-ML and the I1-mavericks are unknown on these new “entry” Z > snps for I1xL22 > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Are there more AS4 haplotypes Z58- Z63- Z131- ? Are they all from British Isles? Best, Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:24 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs AS4 of Wales shares a tree branch line right now with I1-P of Pomerania, Prussia, and Poland, and I1b also with Eastern Europe tendencies. Small world! -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Haggerty Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 5:56 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs Results for FamilyTree #192491 (Meredith) I1-AS4 clade: M253+ Z58- Z63- Z131- And a distant Meredith cousin #189045, also I1-AS4 clade, is: M253+ P259- M227- M21- L338- L22- L211- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:25 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs >I see no one yet from the I1-AS4 clade, strongly connected with Wales, >doing a Z58/Z63/Z131 test? > > Also, the I1-ML and the I1-mavericks are unknown on these new "entry" Z > snps for I1xL22 > > Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1873 / Virus Database: 2102/4646 - Release Date: 11/29/11

I am L338+ Z140+ Z139- Z138- I have been conversing with William (kit 93343) who is L338- Z140+ Z139- Z138- Therefore, Z140 must be upstream from L338, right? Alan -----Original Message----- >From: Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> >Sent: Nov 29, 2011 4:34 PM >To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com >Subject: [yDNAhgI] Tree for I1 with new Z snps > >Because of the fast breaking developments in I1 due to the Z series snps, I have put up a tree for I1 at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net “Tree for I1” > >This will be updated from time to time as information is developing rapidly. > > > >Ken > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks John, so easy yet so elusive! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John O'Grady" <john_ogrady@hotmail.com> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] finding SNP results? > > Click on Haplotree on the left side of your personal page. Your SNPs are > listed at the bottom of the Haplotree page. > >> From: smhaggerty@shaw.ca >> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com >> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:59:52 -0800 >> Subject: [yDNAhgI] finding SNP results? >> >> I know there was information about this a while back, but I am embarassed >> to admit that I have tried searching the list archives and cannot find it >> anywhere. When I log into my FamilyTree account I am unable to find >> anything about he extra SNPs I have ordered. Would some kind soul mind >> please repeating the instructions? And I do apologize for being such a >> pest! >> >> Thanks very much! >> >> Sharon > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Results for FamilyTree #192491 (Meredith) I1-AS4 clade: M253+ Z58- Z63- Z131- And a distant Meredith cousin #189045, also I1-AS4 clade, is: M253+ P259- M227- M21- L338- L22- L211- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:25 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Wales AS4 and the Z SNPs >I see no one yet from the I1-AS4 clade, strongly connected with Wales, >doing a Z58/Z63/Z131 test? > > Also, the I1-ML and the I1-mavericks are unknown on these new “entry” Z > snps for I1xL22 > > Ken

L380 has just returned for the second member of my Rasey project. Their results are now, RAZEE #70816 Continental-1: L801+ L380- RASEY #69631 Continental-2a: L801+ L380+ http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Rasey/RaseyDNA-results.html#data Diana

Click on Haplotree on the left side of your personal page. Your SNPs are listed at the bottom of the Haplotree page. > From: smhaggerty@shaw.ca > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:59:52 -0800 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] finding SNP results? > > I know there was information about this a while back, but I am embarassed to admit that I have tried searching the list archives and cannot find it anywhere. When I log into my FamilyTree account I am unable to find anything about he extra SNPs I have ordered. Would some kind soul mind please repeating the instructions? And I do apologize for being such a pest! > > Thanks very much! > > Sharon