Prize: free admission to one of Newt Gingrich's sermons/professoriallectures (he is an amateur paleontologist!) to the first person who finds a public Z131+ with extended haplotype. With some effort, I believe one or more of the three indicated dna samples could be purchased from the depository catalog, and then extended haplotype produced by FTDNA for a fee. -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 6:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Possible clue to location of Z131 Gary has reminded me that In his recent repost of the haplotypes associated with the non-Norse I1 SNP's found by the 1000 Genomes Project, he posted a clue about Z131 that I missed. The locations of the three Z131+ people are: NA11992: CEU (Utah) HG00117: GBR (Orkney) HG00140: GBR (Kent) Unfortunately Kent isn't at all ethnically isolated, least of all from people of Norse and Scottish descent. Orkney is another story. Orkney is a set of islands off the North coast of Scotland, immediately to the north of Scotland. It seems like the Orkney one should be a clue; I believe that the I1 people on that island don't have much variation and are of Norse origin. It was settled in Neolithic times and has had atleast two historic influxes of people from Scotland. "Picts" were there at one point, but Picts were basically an anti-Roman alliance of people in northern Scotland that eventually politically dominated northern and central Scotland, so it most likely means people from northern Scotland. More recently "Scottish entrepreneurs" settled there, and you'd think they might have been more from the south (and might be ethnically anything). So Z131 should maybe be sought among people from Orkney, Norway and Scotland? Places of Anglo-Saxon settlement, such as southeastern Scotland (and Kent) cannot be ruled out. I believe that Orkney is not all that genetically heterogenous, so if one Z131+ person came from there, perhaps more of them might not be that hard to find? One thing you'd not seriously expect in Orkney, so far as I know, is an eastern I1 clade. Yours, Dora ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Ken, A very happy 2012 to you and family and to all list members. Thank you Ken for your help and support. One wonders what the total population was 11,500 years ago and how much of that population may have impacted the "I" haplo? Best wishes, Ian 27192 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 9:39 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 >I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 >years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and >then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. > Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a > small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. > > Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the > past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch > lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating > around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of > data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once > one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. > > [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something > called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today > can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat > value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. > Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. > Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s > thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space > today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning > distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance > small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a > generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from > the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That > is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were > plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely > located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The > larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of > smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be > separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. > Extinction in action!]] > > If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas > 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 > branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s > entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our > approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) > . > See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived > from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand > years ago. > There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last > glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple > handfuls which survived to latter prosper. > > Those 11 branch lines consist of: > > The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) > The Isles branch (L161+) > The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last > year.) > The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) > The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) > The M26+ branch > The L38+ branch > The M223+ branch > The I2b* branch (L415+) > The I2c* branch (L596+) > The I1 branch (M253+) > > Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from > bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and > Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and > I2c* had just parted. > > This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years > is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many > hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing > for evermore snps. > I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree > structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products > to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. > > So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these > discoveries. Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken, thank you very much for the Tree and Map for Haplogroup I and for the message yesterday.  I have been beyond lost in trying to follow the messages in the past few months and now I am not.  Thank you again.   Richard Edwards    From: "y-dna-haplogroup-i-request@rootsweb.com" <y-dna-haplogroup-i-request@rootsweb.com> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2012 3:01 AM Subject: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I Digest, Vol 7, Issue 1 ----- Forwarded Message ----- Today's Topics:   1. Re: 2004-2012 (Victor Jensen)   2. Re: 2004-2012 (Mudary Mudary)   3. Re: 2004-2012 (Jim Owston) Thanks, Ken. I think many of us would be less willing to test if we didn't have your expertise to explain what the tests mean. Thanks again for all your work. Happy New Year. Vic Jensen -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:39 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago.  I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines.  We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world.  Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position).  Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space.  Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype.  Let’s make him the origin of our N-space.  One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations.  That is NOT what we see.  If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1.  The larger islands on close inspection might  be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype.  Extinction in action!]] If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point),  there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) . See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. Those 11 branch lines consist of: The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) The Isles branch (L161+) The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) The M26+ branch The L38+ branch The M223+ branch The I2b* branch (L415+) The I2c* branch (L596+) The I1 branch (M253+) Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries.  Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Ken, Thank you, I probably would not have gotten all the tests done without your drive. Thank again and have a Very good 2012. Mudary / Gary                         Ken: Thanks for all of your hard work and guidance. Happy New Year. Jim Jim Owston James M. Owston, EdD Dean of Distance Education Associate Professor: Communication & Media Mountain State University PO Box 9003 Beckley, WV  25802-9003 304.929.1356 800.766.6167, ext. 1356 ________________________________________ To contact the Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I list administrator, send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I mailing list, send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text.

Thanks for the summary, particularly listing the 11 'branch lines.' Reading this narrative while looking at your updated (January 1, 2012) I Tree along with the related I1 M253 Tree and 'Conjectured Spread of Haplogroup I' map are very useful in absorbing (and refreshing) what there is to know about Haplogroup I as 2012 dawns. -- Gene Prescott Greenville, NC C. Eugene Prescott, CPA web/blogsite: http://taxtechcpa.blogspot.com/ There is always something new!

Ken: Thanks for all of your hard work and guidance. Happy New Year. Jim Jim Owston James M. Owston, EdD Dean of Distance Education Associate Professor: Communication & Media Mountain State University PO Box 9003 Beckley, WV 25802-9003 304.929.1356 800.766.6167, ext. 1356 ________________________________________

Gary has reminded me that In his recent repost of the haplotypes associated with the non-Norse I1 SNP's found by the 1000 Genomes Project, he posted a clue about Z131 that I missed. The locations of the three Z131+ people are: NA11992: CEU (Utah) HG00117: GBR (Orkney) HG00140: GBR (Kent) Unfortunately Kent isn't at all ethnically isolated, least of all from people of Norse and Scottish descent. Orkney is another story. Orkney is a set of islands off the North coast of Scotland, immediately to the north of Scotland. It seems like the Orkney one should be a clue; I believe that the I1 people on that island don't have much variation and are of Norse origin. It was settled in Neolithic times and has had atleast two historic influxes of people from Scotland. "Picts" were there at one point, but Picts were basically an anti-Roman alliance of people in northern Scotland that eventually politically dominated northern and central Scotland, so it most likely means people from northern Scotland. More recently "Scottish entrepreneurs" settled there, and you'd think they might have been more from the south (and might be ethnically anything). So Z131 should maybe be sought among people from Orkney, Norway and Scotland? Places of Anglo-Saxon settlement, such as southeastern Scotland (and Kent) cannot be ruled out. I believe that Orkney is not all that genetically heterogenous, so if one Z131+ person came from there, perhaps more of them might not be that hard to find? One thing you'd not seriously expect in Orkney, so far as I know, is an eastern I1 clade. Yours, Dora

Thanks, Ken, for your hard work. We have all benefited from it. Kent > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:39:29 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 > > I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. > Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. > > Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. > > [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. Extinction in action!]] > > If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) > . > See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. > There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. > > Those 11 branch lines consist of: > > The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) > The Isles branch (L161+) > The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) > The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) > The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) > The M26+ branch > The L38+ branch > The M223+ branch > The I2b* branch (L415+) > The I2c* branch (L596+) > The I1 branch (M253+) > > Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. > > This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. > I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. > > So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries. Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken, Thank you, I probably would not have gotten all the tests done without your drive. Thank again and have a Very good 2012. Mudary / Gary

Thanks, Ken. I think many of us would be less willing to test if we didn't have your expertise to explain what the tests mean. Thanks again for all your work. Happy New Year. Vic Jensen -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:39 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. Extinction in action!]] If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) . See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. Those 11 branch lines consist of: The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) The Isles branch (L161+) The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) The M26+ branch The L38+ branch The M223+ branch The I2b* branch (L415+) The I2c* branch (L596+) The I1 branch (M253+) Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. Extinction in action!]] If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) . See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. Those 11 branch lines consist of: The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) The Isles branch (L161+) The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) The M26+ branch The L38+ branch The M223+ branch The I2b* branch (L415+) The I2c* branch (L596+) The I1 branch (M253+) Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries. Ken

My haplotype and your haplotype are not members of clades as such; they are just part of the background. (That's not exactly true in my own case; I believe I have found two English haplotypes with common ancestry to my male line living 1300 years ago). Out of the many, many lines, there will be the whole spectrum of those closely matching the MRCA haplotype to those very different. There will be a distribution of differences from the founder which has a peak somewhere in the middle. If one picks subsets which somehow exclude the outliers or exclude the super central haplotypes, then yes, you will produce artificial tmrca estimates which are too low or too high, respectively. All I can do with my own haplotype right now is make tmrca estimates for the node between my line and the AS2 line, or between my line and your line, etc. AS2 is actually quite young. We don't know yet what makes up the rest of the Z138+ Z139+ population --- it could be just generics like you and me, or other clades identified on basis of their STRs could be included??? Ken -----Original Message----- From: owodom@mail.utexas.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 5:18 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ Ken, What I was envisioning in scenario 2 was the low but finite probability that even in an old clade some members would not have undergone much change in STR pattern from the clade founder, so that if one examined many members of the clade he would be expected to find a few who still resemble the clade founder and thus each other. Then, if only these few are analyzed for tmrca, and those who don't match are excluded, it seems that an erroneous value for tmrca would be obtained. In the case of the Z-139+ clade, which includes you, me, and AS2, maybe your argument is that the clade is too old and AS2 is too numerous to represent the founder's STR pattern or something close to it? Quoting Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>: I don't understand your scenario 2)? You have a bunch of haplotypes of a clade. They have accumulated STR repeat differences. Their variance is a measure of time back to the MRCA. That's it. When the ancestral line of the MRCA split from other branches of I1 is a different issue --- different node, as measured by interclade variances. -----Original Message----- From: Obed W Odom Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:02 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ Ken, How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently recent tmrca or 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the common ancestor? It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca calculation. I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken, What I was envisioning in scenario 2 was the low but finite probability that even in an old clade some members would not have undergone much change in STR pattern from the clade founder, so that if one examined many members of the clade he would be expected to find a few who still resemble the clade founder and thus each other. Then, if only these few are analyzed for tmrca, and those who don't match are excluded, it seems that an erroneous value for tmrca would be obtained. In the case of the Z-139+ clade, which includes you, me, and AS2, maybe your argument is that the clade is too old and AS2 is too numerous to represent the founder's STR pattern or something close to it? Quoting Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>: I don't understand your scenario 2)? You have a bunch of haplotypes of a clade. They have accumulated STR repeat differences. Their variance is a measure of time back to the MRCA. That's it. When the ancestral line of the MRCA split from other branches of I1 is a different issue --- different node, as measured by interclade variances. -----Original Message----- From: Obed W Odom Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:02 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ Ken, How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently recent tmrca or 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the common ancestor? It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca calculation. I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished.

Ken, How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently recent tmrca or 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the common ancestor? It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca calculation. I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished. On 12/16/2011 7:28 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > My interpretation, based on my old tmrca with AS2, and the young tmrca of > AS2 itself, is that both lines after parting ways simply diverged as they > will. I could not suggest yet what the haplotypes looked like at the > beginning of Z139+. > > I see some commonalities among AS2, your haplotype, mine.... but it is not > much to hang a hat on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owodom@mail.utexas.edu > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 6:07 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ > > Ray, > > Do I interpret your message correctly that you are I1-AS2 and are > Z58+, Z139+, and Z138+? If so, that puts you (I1-AS2)and Ken and me > (I1-AS-generic) in the same clade, as judged by SNPs. Do you agree, > Ken? Could this mean that the Y-STR pattern of I1-AS2 is more similar > to the pattern of our common ancestor, but that the Y-STR pattern of > some of us I1-AS-generics has mutated enough that we can no longer be > recognized by STRs but only by SNPs? >

Sent from my LG phone Obed W Odom <owodom@mail.utexas.edu> wrote: >Ken, > >How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: > 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently >recent tmrca >or > 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR >pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the >pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the >majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough >that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the >common ancestor? > >It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent >tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, >and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient >clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other >members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca >calculation. > >I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished. > >On 12/16/2011 7:28 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: >> My interpretation, based on my old tmrca with AS2, and the young tmrca of >> AS2 itself, is that both lines after parting ways simply diverged as they >> will. I could not suggest yet what the haplotypes looked like at the >> beginning of Z139+. >> >> I see some commonalities among AS2, your haplotype, mine.... but it is not >> much to hang a hat on. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owodom@mail.utexas.edu >> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 6:07 PM >> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ >> >> Ray, >> >> Do I interpret your message correctly that you are I1-AS2 and are >> Z58+, Z139+, and Z138+? If so, that puts you (I1-AS2)and Ken and me >> (I1-AS-generic) in the same clade, as judged by SNPs. Do you agree, >> Ken? Could this mean that the Y-STR pattern of I1-AS2 is more similar >> to the pattern of our common ancestor, but that the Y-STR pattern of >> some of us I1-AS-generics has mutated enough that we can no longer be >> recognized by STRs but only by SNPs? >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't understand your scenario 2)? You have a bunch of haplotypes of a clade. They have accumulated STR repeat differences. Their variance is a measure of time back to the MRCA. That's it. When the ancestral line of the MRCA split from other branches of I1 is a different issue --- different node, as measured by interclade variances. -----Original Message----- From: Obed W Odom Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 11:02 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ Ken, How can one distinguish between these 2 possibilities for AS2: 1) AS2 is a relatively young clade, as judged by its apparently recent tmrca or 2) AS2 is a part of a much older clade; namely, that part whose STR pattern has changed little (through the luck of the draw) from the pattern of the ancient common ancestor, while the STR pattern of the majority of this clade (again by purely random means) has changed enough that it no longer shows a close resemblance to the STR pattern of the common ancestor? It seems to me that in either case AS2 would *appear* to have a recent tmrca: in the first case because it actually does have a recent tmrca, and in the second case because it has been *selected* from the ancient clade precisely on the basis of a shared STR pattern, and the other members of the ancient clade have thus been discarded from the tmrca calculation. I'm having trouble seeing how these possibilities can be distinguished. On 12/16/2011 7:28 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > My interpretation, based on my old tmrca with AS2, and the young tmrca of > AS2 itself, is that both lines after parting ways simply diverged as they > will. I could not suggest yet what the haplotypes looked like at the > beginning of Z139+. > > I see some commonalities among AS2, your haplotype, mine.... but it is not > much to hang a hat on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owodom@mail.utexas.edu > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 6:07 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] AS2 - Z138+ > > Ray, > > Do I interpret your message correctly that you are I1-AS2 and are > Z58+, Z139+, and Z138+? If so, that puts you (I1-AS2)and Ken and me > (I1-AS-generic) in the same clade, as judged by SNPs. Do you agree, > Ken? Could this mean that the Y-STR pattern of I1-AS2 is more similar > to the pattern of our common ancestor, but that the Y-STR pattern of > some of us I1-AS-generics has mutated enough that we can no longer be > recognized by STRs but only by SNPs? > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:57:34 -0800 > From: gknysh@yahoo.com > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2 Z-SNPs > > > > --- On Tue, 12/27/11, Bernie Cullen <berniecullen@gmail.com> wrote: > > > From: Bernie Cullen <berniecullen@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2 Z-SNPs > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tuesday, December 27, 2011, 8:54 PM > > Thanks for the question, Wil. > > > > Here is the latest news for I-P37.2 (still called I2a at > > FTDNA): > > > > 1) A Walk Through The Y for an I2a2a "Dinaric-S" person > > with ancestors from > > Bosnia was completed a few weeks ago, no new SNPs were > > discovered. > > ******************************************************************* > > Two quickies: > (a) Is this person L-147+ ? > (b) Is the Disles group also L-147+ ? L147 is positive for Dinaric, negative for Disles and Isles.

Hi Wilfred, I am Kit #78840 & ID #KSHQN on our FTDNA Family Project and had 67 markers tested. Is there anything more that I could have tested that might help at all? Best Regards, Richard Huestis Bridport, VT On Dec 27, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Wilfred Husted <wmhusted@hotmail.com> wrote: > Howdy Bernie, > > Many thanks for the update. I'll see if my primitive chart is up to date. > > Please me know if there is anything I can test that might prove useful. > > Wil > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bernie Cullen > Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 1:54 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2 Z-SNPs > > Thanks for the question, Wil. > > Here is the latest news for I-P37.2 (still called I2a at FTDNA): > > 1) A Walk Through The Y for an I2a2a "Dinaric-S" person with ancestors from > Bosnia was completed a few weeks ago, no new SNPs were discovered. > 2) A new SNP called L880 was discovered by a lucky accident in one person > from the I2a*-NF (Northern France) group. The only other known family in > I2a*-NF was found to be L880+ a few days ago. All of the major groups of > I2a are already known to be L880- but we still need to test someone from > the I2a*-F (France) group (the group with DYS388=9). This new L880+ group > would be called I2a4 at FTDNA or I2a1d at ISOGG and doesn't have a common > ancestor for 10,000+ years with the other I-P37.2 groups Sardinian, > Western, Dinaric, Isles. > 3) The FTDNA I2a project has a new member with 111 markers, he is from > southern Iraq and seems to be a very distant match to the I2a2b-"Isles" > group. We hope to test him for L161, all the people matching the "Isles" > modal have been L161+. > > 4) Finally, about the Z SNPs in your I2a1b group (part of "Sardinian" > I2a1): we have a few more results which confirm what we already know. You > (Wil Husted) belong to the Z106+ group but have tested negative for some Z > SNPs which were found in the two Puerto Ricans in the 1000 genomes project > (Z110, Z117, Z128, Z129). Another man in your Z106+ group has tested > negative for all these SNPs also. His paternal ancestry is unknown. If we > get a chance, we will try to test Spanish-ancestry people for these SNPs. > We already had one person who was Z106- but was positive for several SNPs > that most I2a1b people were negative for: he was Z118+ Z119+ Z125+ and last > week he received Z126+ Z127+ results. His paternal ancestors are from > western Germany. A second man with ancestors from France is also Z106- but > Z118+ Z119+ Z125+. > > So to summarize, one year ago we only knew of the I2a1b (M26+ L160+) group > which stretched from Iberia to Italy and Sardinia north through Switzerland > to western Germany and Britain and Ireland. Thanks to the Z SNPs we have > more levels in the tree: > I2a1b* (M26+ L160+ Z118- Z106-) which contains 70% or so of the I2a1b > population > I2a1b1 (M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106-) which is only around 5% of I2a1b and is > found in Germany, France and based on STR matches, maybe England and > Scotland also > I2a1b1a (M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106+) which is less than half of the I2a1b > population in Spain and is also found in Britain, so is maybe around 25% of > the overall I2a1b population. > Presumably there are also I2a1b1a1 people in Puerto Rico and elsewhere in > the Spanish world but so far they are only known from the 1000 Genomes data > (they would be M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106+ and also positive for some of Z110, > Z117, Z128, Z129. > > It's possible that there are more levels to be found in the tree if we > tested everyone an each group for all known Z SNPs, but I think most of the > SNPs are equivalent to Z118 or Z106 and there aren't many/any more levels > to be found. > > I will post a new message with the tree for I2a1b when a few more SNP tests > are complete. > > Bernie Cullen > volunteer co-administator I2a Project at FTDNA > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for the question, Wil. Here is the latest news for I-P37.2 (still called I2a at FTDNA): 1) A Walk Through The Y for an I2a2a "Dinaric-S" person with ancestors from Bosnia was completed a few weeks ago, no new SNPs were discovered. 2) A new SNP called L880 was discovered by a lucky accident in one person from the I2a*-NF (Northern France) group. The only other known family in I2a*-NF was found to be L880+ a few days ago. All of the major groups of I2a are already known to be L880- but we still need to test someone from the I2a*-F (France) group (the group with DYS388=9). This new L880+ group would be called I2a4 at FTDNA or I2a1d at ISOGG and doesn't have a common ancestor for 10,000+ years with the other I-P37.2 groups Sardinian, Western, Dinaric, Isles. 3) The FTDNA I2a project has a new member with 111 markers, he is from southern Iraq and seems to be a very distant match to the I2a2b-"Isles" group. We hope to test him for L161, all the people matching the "Isles" modal have been L161+. 4) Finally, about the Z SNPs in your I2a1b group (part of "Sardinian" I2a1): we have a few more results which confirm what we already know. You (Wil Husted) belong to the Z106+ group but have tested negative for some Z SNPs which were found in the two Puerto Ricans in the 1000 genomes project (Z110, Z117, Z128, Z129). Another man in your Z106+ group has tested negative for all these SNPs also. His paternal ancestry is unknown. If we get a chance, we will try to test Spanish-ancestry people for these SNPs. We already had one person who was Z106- but was positive for several SNPs that most I2a1b people were negative for: he was Z118+ Z119+ Z125+ and last week he received Z126+ Z127+ results. His paternal ancestors are from western Germany. A second man with ancestors from France is also Z106- but Z118+ Z119+ Z125+. So to summarize, one year ago we only knew of the I2a1b (M26+ L160+) group which stretched from Iberia to Italy and Sardinia north through Switzerland to western Germany and Britain and Ireland. Thanks to the Z SNPs we have more levels in the tree: I2a1b* (M26+ L160+ Z118- Z106-) which contains 70% or so of the I2a1b population I2a1b1 (M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106-) which is only around 5% of I2a1b and is found in Germany, France and based on STR matches, maybe England and Scotland also I2a1b1a (M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106+) which is less than half of the I2a1b population in Spain and is also found in Britain, so is maybe around 25% of the overall I2a1b population. Presumably there are also I2a1b1a1 people in Puerto Rico and elsewhere in the Spanish world but so far they are only known from the 1000 Genomes data (they would be M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106+ and also positive for some of Z110, Z117, Z128, Z129. It's possible that there are more levels to be found in the tree if we tested everyone an each group for all known Z SNPs, but I think most of the SNPs are equivalent to Z118 or Z106 and there aren't many/any more levels to be found. I will post a new message with the tree for I2a1b when a few more SNP tests are complete. Bernie Cullen volunteer co-administator I2a Project at FTDNA

Hello Richard, It's good to hear from you. At last, someone else interested in our deeper Husted ancestry! Upgrading to 68-111 markers at FTDNA would be very helpful. I don't want to do this because I already have all but a few of the markers from other sources in this panel. I tested for 13 new SNPs and the results are available at: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults Bernie Cullen maintains this site and has just about all the DNA data for our I2 haplogroup. I think that we share the same results for the Z series SNPs. I'm 40308 Husted in the SNP list. Bernie, please correct me if I'm wrong. Wil -----Original Message----- From: Richard Huestis Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 2:55 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2 Z-SNPs Hi Wilfred, I am Kit #78840 & ID #KSHQN on our FTDNA Family Project and had 67 markers tested. Is there anything more that I could have tested that might help at all? Best Regards, Richard Huestis Bridport, VT

Howdy Bernie, Many thanks for the update. I'll see if my primitive chart is up to date. Please me know if there is anything I can test that might prove useful. Wil -----Original Message----- From: Bernie Cullen Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 1:54 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I2 Z-SNPs Thanks for the question, Wil. Here is the latest news for I-P37.2 (still called I2a at FTDNA): 1) A Walk Through The Y for an I2a2a "Dinaric-S" person with ancestors from Bosnia was completed a few weeks ago, no new SNPs were discovered. 2) A new SNP called L880 was discovered by a lucky accident in one person from the I2a*-NF (Northern France) group. The only other known family in I2a*-NF was found to be L880+ a few days ago. All of the major groups of I2a are already known to be L880- but we still need to test someone from the I2a*-F (France) group (the group with DYS388=9). This new L880+ group would be called I2a4 at FTDNA or I2a1d at ISOGG and doesn't have a common ancestor for 10,000+ years with the other I-P37.2 groups Sardinian, Western, Dinaric, Isles. 3) The FTDNA I2a project has a new member with 111 markers, he is from southern Iraq and seems to be a very distant match to the I2a2b-"Isles" group. We hope to test him for L161, all the people matching the "Isles" modal have been L161+. 4) Finally, about the Z SNPs in your I2a1b group (part of "Sardinian" I2a1): we have a few more results which confirm what we already know. You (Wil Husted) belong to the Z106+ group but have tested negative for some Z SNPs which were found in the two Puerto Ricans in the 1000 genomes project (Z110, Z117, Z128, Z129). Another man in your Z106+ group has tested negative for all these SNPs also. His paternal ancestry is unknown. If we get a chance, we will try to test Spanish-ancestry people for these SNPs. We already had one person who was Z106- but was positive for several SNPs that most I2a1b people were negative for: he was Z118+ Z119+ Z125+ and last week he received Z126+ Z127+ results. His paternal ancestors are from western Germany. A second man with ancestors from France is also Z106- but Z118+ Z119+ Z125+. So to summarize, one year ago we only knew of the I2a1b (M26+ L160+) group which stretched from Iberia to Italy and Sardinia north through Switzerland to western Germany and Britain and Ireland. Thanks to the Z SNPs we have more levels in the tree: I2a1b* (M26+ L160+ Z118- Z106-) which contains 70% or so of the I2a1b population I2a1b1 (M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106-) which is only around 5% of I2a1b and is found in Germany, France and based on STR matches, maybe England and Scotland also I2a1b1a (M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106+) which is less than half of the I2a1b population in Spain and is also found in Britain, so is maybe around 25% of the overall I2a1b population. Presumably there are also I2a1b1a1 people in Puerto Rico and elsewhere in the Spanish world but so far they are only known from the 1000 Genomes data (they would be M26+ L160+ Z118+ Z106+ and also positive for some of Z110, Z117, Z128, Z129. It's possible that there are more levels to be found in the tree if we tested everyone an each group for all known Z SNPs, but I think most of the SNPs are equivalent to Z118 or Z106 and there aren't many/any more levels to be found. I will post a new message with the tree for I2a1b when a few more SNP tests are complete. Bernie Cullen volunteer co-administator I2a Project at FTDNA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message