Found a 4th Z63+ outside of T2 (all basically I1-generic). His haplotype is different from all the others as well. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 5:02 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Z63+ is turning out interesting. I have three Z63+ not part of T2, and each quite different in haplotype from each other and from T2. Ancient branch offs! -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Carballada Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:07 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Hello list! I've just got new fresh results: (FTDNA: N34614, Ysearch: DJJT3) Z63+ Z59- Z131- The 67-111 panel has also been completed. Pablo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Z63+ is turning out interesting. I have three Z63+ not part of T2, and each quite different in haplotype from each other and from T2. Ancient branch offs! -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Carballada Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:07 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Hello list! I've just got new fresh results: (FTDNA: N34614, Ysearch: DJJT3) Z63+ Z59- Z131- The 67-111 panel has also been completed. Pablo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How many Z63+ you have? Have non-T2 significant share? -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Found a 4th Z63+ outside of T2 (all basically I1-generic). His haplotype is different from all the others as well. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 5:02 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Z63+ is turning out interesting. I have three Z63+ not part of T2, and each quite different in haplotype from each other and from T2. Ancient branch offs! -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Carballada Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:07 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Hello list! I've just got new fresh results: (FTDNA: N34614, Ysearch: DJJT3) Z63+ Z59- Z131- The 67-111 panel has also been completed. Pablo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4730 - Release Date: 01/08/12

Hi Ken and all ~ While you may already be aware, one of my close 67 STR matches pointed out to me that one of the members of the AS9b (AS16) Project (to which I/we belong) is reporting derived (+) for Z58, Z59, and Z140. There are 2 other members (including myself) who are derived (+) for Z58, Z59, BUT ancestral (-) for Z140. Also, there is one member Z58+ and Z140- (not having tested Z59). Kit Z58 Z59 Z140 25496 + + + 121192 + - 154151 + + - 181479 + + - I'm confused by the STR vis à vi SNP usage to group results. Is this an apples versus oranges division? Or, is the AS9b (AS16) group about to split apart forming new groups? Also I want to give my thanks for your work here shedding light on HG I. We HG I folks are fortunate in sharing your HG. Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

Ken and others Kit: 64529, YSearch X7P3B, I1-AS 'Maverick' has just come back Z140-. Z60 test is pending. His SNP lineup now: Z59+ Z58+ M253+ L803+ L802+ Z63- Z140- Z139- Z138- Z131- P259- M72- M227- M21- L573- L338- L22- L211- I will let the list know how he goes with Z60. I don't think we have any other test options available right now. As far as I know Z382 and DF29 are still not available. RE: L803 We have now confirmed to the best of our ability that L803 has the potential to bust out of Maverick (Frame A, Hamilton C, Scruggs, Jobling etc.). The 'Mavericks' in the Frame project with the greatest genetic distance have both tested L803+. Their Frame lines appear to have branched apart before the lines leading to Hamilton, Scruggs etc., possibly even around the Conquest era. Since L803 is below Z59, those who are Z59+ and have Frames etc. among their matches at YSearch, may be interesting in testing L803. Regards Julie Frame Falk -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 11:50 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [DNA] Z60 is splitting things in I1xL22 Z60 snp is showing interesting division and should be ordered by certain people in I1xL22 Z60 is in the FTDNA catalog. Z60 is downstream of Z58 and Z59. So if you are Z58+ and Z59+, or Z58+ and Z138- (or Z139-) then Z60 is important for you. We don’t yet know whether Z58+ Z140+ people are Z60+ or Z60- If you are Z58+ Z140- we have found both a Z60- and a Z60+ It seems clade I1-AS9 is Z60+ but I1-AS13 is Z60- Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GENEALOGY-DNA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Will any of the genome info that I received from 23andMe help further identify a location? I have downloaded the SNPMAP application and can view some genome data. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 7:24 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Testing additional SNPs I take it your haplotype 65267 was found L126+ as it looks like member of the "Limbo" clade of M284+ You should probably test for L369. -----Original Message----- From: Linda Threadgill Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 1:48 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Testing additional SNPs I’m considering ordering some additional SNP tests. According to the last newsletter I think I should be ordering L386, but I am not sure. 67 markers were tested and as well as L126 . The kit# that I am referencing is 65267 and the old haplgroup desingation was I2b1a1. Also, I have tested with 23andMe. Linda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If you are L338+ there is no further downstream snps to test at the moment. You'll have to wait for new snps on your branch line to be found. -----Original Message----- From: J E DESTEIGUER Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 3:44 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Occurrence of L338? NW Germany and the Netherlands are adjacent hence it's almost impossible to differentiate between the two. A question: what SNPs should I test for next, after L338+? Regards, Ed ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks..I have ordered L369. On Jan 6, 2012 7:25 PM, "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: I take it your haplotype 65267 was found L126+ as it looks like member of the "Limbo" clade of M284+ You should probably test for L369. -----Original Message----- From: Linda Threadgill Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 1:48 PM To: Y-DNA... ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I take it your haplotype 65267 was found L126+ as it looks like member of the "Limbo" clade of M284+ You should probably test for L369. -----Original Message----- From: Linda Threadgill Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 1:48 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Testing additional SNPs I’m considering ordering some additional SNP tests. According to the last newsletter I think I should be ordering L386, but I am not sure. 67 markers were tested and as well as L126 . The kit# that I am referencing is 65267 and the old haplgroup desingation was I2b1a1. Also, I have tested with 23andMe. Linda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ordered Z60. Vic Jensen YSearch DM35M

Z60 snp is showing interesting division and should be ordered by certain people in I1xL22 Z60 is in the FTDNA catalog. Z60 is downstream of Z58 and Z59. So if you are Z58+ and Z59+, or Z58+ and Z138- (or Z139-) then Z60 is important for you. We don’t yet know whether Z58+ Z140+ people are Z60+ or Z60- If you are Z58+ Z140- we have found both a Z60- and a Z60+ It seems clade I1-AS9 is Z60+ but I1-AS13 is Z60- Ken

I’m considering ordering some additional SNP tests. According to the last newsletter I think I should be ordering L386, but I am not sure. 67 markers were tested and as well as L126 . The kit# that I am referencing is 65267 and the old haplgroup desingation was I2b1a1. Also, I have tested with 23andMe. Linda

NW Germany and the Netherlands are adjacent hence it's almost impossible to differentiate between the two. A question: what SNPs should I test for next, after L338+? Regards, Ed

We know almost nothing about when M253 occurred, other than it happened more than 4500 years ago but less than 20,000 or so years ago. See "Tree for I1" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net You can see I estimate the time range for L338 to be between 2000 years ago and 3200 years ago. MRCA for I1-AS1 was about 2000 years ago. I believe the location was NW Germany for the L338+, but I have not seen another clade of haplogroup I as strongly present in Netherlands as AS1. -----Original Message----- From: J E DESTEIGUER Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 4:05 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Occurrence of L338? I recently tested positive for L338. I am curious: do we know about when this mutation appeared, especially relative to M253? And am I correct in saying it likely appeared first in north Germany or the Netherlands? Thanks and Happy New Year. Ed de Steiguer ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I recently tested positive for L338. I am curious: do we know about when this mutation appeared, especially relative to M253? And am I correct in saying it likely appeared first in north Germany or the Netherlands? Thanks and Happy New Year. Ed de Steiguer

And, one of the best things to happen to this hobby was Ken Nordtvedt getting interested in it. Thanks for all you have done in days of Auld Lang Syne, Ken. Bob Arvin -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 4:39 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would ! see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. Extinction in action!]] If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) . See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. Those 11 branch lines consist of: The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) The Isles branch (L161+) The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) The M26+ branch The L38+ branch The M223+ branch The I2b* branch (L415+) The I2c* branch (L596+) The I1 branch (M253+) Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries. Ken ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hope I'm not the first one to find a public Z131! LOL! How much would it cost to purchase one of the dna samples from the depository catalog? I don't suppose there is any chance of identifying the Utah person; good chance he knows more about his ancestry, and may even have submitted a sample to SMGF. Dora -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt [mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net] Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 2:03 PM To: tiggernut24@yahoo.com; y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Possible clue to location of Z131 Prize: free admission to one of Newt Gingrich's sermons/professoriallectures (he is an amateur paleontologist!) to the first person who finds a public Z131+ with extended haplotype. With some effort, I believe one or more of the three indicated dna samples could be purchased from the depository catalog, and then extended haplotype produced by FTDNA for a fee.

-----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Hope I'm not the first one to find a public Z131! LOL! How much would it cost to purchase one of the dna samples from the depository catalog? I don't suppose there is any chance of identifying the Utah person; good chance he knows more about his ancestry, and may even have submitted a sample to SMGF. [[Several years ago I did purchase a key dna sample from one of those depositories, after an academic researcher gave me the catalog number for his M284+ discovery. It costs about $50 if I can remember correctly, and there was some bureaucratic things I had to do to make it clear it was for research purposes. I'm not keen to do this again. But others might want to pursue things. I think 1000 Genomes people are best (probably only) source of dna sample information. ]]

Ken, thanks for your leadership. Genetic genealogy is the closest thing possible to a time machine. Fascinating! --Ed de Steiguer *********************** J.E. "Ed" de Steiguer 5900 N. Placita Tecolote Tucson, AZ 85718 520-334-5565-cell****************************************** From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-request@rootsweb.com Subject: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I Digest, Vol 6, Issue 483 To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:34:10 -0700 --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:39:29 -0700 Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. Extinction in action!]] If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) . See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. Those 11 branch lines consist of: The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) The Isles branch (L161+) The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) The M26+ branch The L38+ branch The M223+ branch The I2b* branch (L415+) The I2c* branch (L596+) The I1 branch (M253+) Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries. Ken --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: kentbishop@hotmail.com To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:16:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 Thanks, Ken, for your hard work. We have all benefited from it. Kent > From: knordtvedt@bresnan.net > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:39:29 -0700 > Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 > > I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. > Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. > > Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. > > [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. Extinction in action!]] > > If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) > . > See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand years ago. > There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple handfuls which survived to latter prosper. > > Those 11 branch lines consist of: > > The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) > The Isles branch (L161+) > The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last year.) > The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) > The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) > The M26+ branch > The L38+ branch > The M223+ branch > The I2b* branch (L415+) > The I2c* branch (L596+) > The I1 branch (M253+) > > Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and I2c* had just parted. > > This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing for evermore snps. > I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. > > So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these discoveries. Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: iangammage@iinet.net.au To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 10:38:48 +1100 Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 Thank you Ken, A very happy 2012 to you and family and to all list members. Thank you Ken for your help and support. One wonders what the total population was 11,500 years ago and how much of that population may have impacted the "I" haplo? Best wishes, Ian 27192 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>; <genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 9:39 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] 2004-2012 >I entered the hobby and bought my initial personal 37 marker haplotype 8 >years ago. I soon expanded my interest to I1 haplogroup as a whole, and >then y haplogroup I as a whole, and have made this my study since. > Haplogroup I is overwhelmingly a European haplogroup, supplemented by a > small clade from the eastern (Armenian) part of today’s Turkey. > > Perhaps the most interesting thing I have learned is how “recent” into the > past is the collapse of the y tree to just a couple handfuls of branch > lines. We now have approximately 10,000 haplogroup I haplotypes floating > around in various public databases in the world. Based on that amount of > data we find the y tree highly pruned to just a tiny number of limbs once > one goes back further than 4, 5, or 6 thousand years. > > [[ To go off on a more technical tangent for a moment, there is something > called N dimensional haplotype space in which N STR haplotypes of today > can each be represented by a point (or vector position). Each STR repeat > value becomes one of the vector’s coordinates in this abstract space. > Over 20,000 years ago there was a single haplogroup I founder’s haplotype. > Let’s make him the origin of our N-space. One might have expected today’s > thousands of measured haplogroup I haplotypes to form a cloud in N-space > today, fanning out in all N directions from the origin, with the fanning > distance somewhat large for the fast STR coordinates and fanning distance > small for the slow STR coordinates --- a shape something like a > generalized N dimensional football --- with this cloud diffused out from > the origin being the result of 20,000 years of slow STR mutations. That > is NOT what we see. If all today’s known haplotypes of haplogroup I were > plotted in this N-space we would see a few dozen islands of densely > located haplotypes, some islands very tiny and some huge like I1. The > larger islands on close inspection might be seen to be clusters of > smaller islands, forming archipelagoes. These few dozen islands will be > separated by utter voids in N-space containing not a solitary haplotype. > Extinction in action!]] > > If we trace all of y haplogroup I back to the end of the Younger Dryas > 11.5 thousand years ago (somewhat arbitrary point), there were just 11 > branch lines then which are the founders or male line originators of today’s > entire population numbering in the tens of millions (as sampled by our > approximately 10,000 measured haplotypes) > . > See “Tree and Map for Haplogroup I” at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > Those 11 branch lines from the end of Younger Dryas are all that survived > from the single haplogroup I founder of slightly more than 20 thousand > years ago. > There was very close to zero population growth in Europe through the last > glacial maximum, wiping out just about every y line except a couple > handfuls which survived to latter prosper. > > Those 11 branch lines consist of: > > The Dinaric/Disles branch (L621+) > The Isles branch (L161+) > The NF branch (only two known members; L880+; discovered just this last > year.) > The I2a1*-F branch (P37xAll) > The Western/Alpine branch (L624+/L233+) > The M26+ branch > The L38+ branch > The M223+ branch > The I2b* branch (L415+) > The I2c* branch (L596+) > The I1 branch (M253+) > > Of these eleven branches, six of them had been just formed from > bifurcations from three 11.5 thousand years ago --- Dinaric/Disles and > Isles had just parted ways, L38+ and M223+ had just parted, and I2b* and > I2c* had just parted. > > This knowledge of y haplogroup I tree structure over the last 20,000 years > is primarily achieved from the collective interests and actions of many > hobbyists who have participated in hounding industry for and then testing > for evermore snps. > I seriously doubt that the academics would have ever pursued this y tree > structure with such detail, or that industry would have expanded products > to include so many more y snps without hobbyist clamorings. > > So Happy New Year to all the hobbyists who have played a role in these > discoveries. Ken > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

-----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 6:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Possible clue to location of Z131 Gary has reminded me that In his recent repost of the haplotypes associated with the non-Norse I1 SNP's found by the 1000 Genomes Project, he posted a clue about Z131 that I missed. The locations of the three Z131+ people are: NA11992: CEU (Utah) HG00117: GBR (Orkney) HG00140: GBR (Kent) [[[ Does it not strike you as odd that they found among 15 or so three purported Z131+; while none have shown up yet among many dozens of Z131 tests now from FTDNA? That must be saying something about selection effects here or there? ]]]