Parr and Cole haplotypes are recently related to Bartlett haplotype. The new Z series snps divide I1-ASgeneric as well as dividing the robust clades into subhaplogroups. I'd recommend Z58 and Z63. And then depending on results there could be further downstream Z snps to do. -----Original Message----- From: Ron Bartlett Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 10:43 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Would any of the new SNPs be of value to me YSearch : RQD7Y Way back in 2008 you commented as follows: I received your full haplotype yesterday, I believe, from the I1a project > notification system. You were put into the I1a-ASgeneric group. Would you > believe you are the only I1a-ASgeneric in my collection with 20-20 at YCA > or > 12 at 460? Rare bird. I1a-ASgeneric makes up maybe 40 or 45 percent of all > haplotypes. There are now 5 of us which have 20-20 at YCA,three of those which have 12 at 460 and 2 with different surnames which have 11 at 460. One of the latter is in England (surname Parr) and traces his linneage in England back to 1790. Three of us in the US have a solid paper trail back to an Oliver Bartlett born about 1743(US) but have hit a brick wall at that point. Parr and the other person with the surname Coe(country of origin unknown but believed to be in US) and I match 25-25 but are 2 steps off at 37. Parr,Coe and I vary at 460, both of them being 11. Parr varies from me also at 576, he being 16. The second step where Coe varies is at H4 where he is 11. Given my somewhat rare SNP values, should I give serious consideration to the possibility that one or both of these 2 men may be "somewhat" close relatives? Also, since our last contact I've had the following test results: Kittler has shown 14,12 at 385 a/b DYS#462: 12 P40 and S62-66 derived (+) L22- M161- M170+ M21- M223- M227- M253+ M258+ M26- M307+ M72- P109- P19+ P259- P30+ P37.2- P38+ Given these and past results, are there any new SNPs you feel there would be a benefit from testing? I've recently had the basic test done at 23andMe. I have no idea whether any of those specific results are of value aside from the fact that they too classified me I1. Any guidance would be appreciated. Ron Bartlett ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

YSearch : RQD7Y Way back in 2008 you commented as follows: I received your full haplotype yesterday, I believe, from the I1a project > notification system. You were put into the I1a-ASgeneric group. Would you > believe you are the only I1a-ASgeneric in my collection with 20-20 at YCA or > 12 at 460? Rare bird. I1a-ASgeneric makes up maybe 40 or 45 percent of all > haplotypes. There are now 5 of us which have 20-20 at YCA,three of those which have 12 at 460 and 2 with different surnames which have 11 at 460. One of the latter is in England (surname Parr) and traces his linneage in England back to 1790. Three of us in the US have a solid paper trail back to an Oliver Bartlett born about 1743(US) but have hit a brick wall at that point. Parr and the other person with the surname Coe(country of origin unknown but believed to be in US) and I match 25-25 but are 2 steps off at 37. Parr,Coe and I vary at 460, both of them being 11. Parr varies from me also at 576, he being 16. The second step where Coe varies is at H4 where he is 11. Given my somewhat rare SNP values, should I give serious consideration to the possibility that one or both of these 2 men may be "somewhat" close relatives? Also, since our last contact I've had the following test results: Kittler has shown 14,12 at 385 a/b DYS#462: 12 P40 and S62-66 derived (+) L22- M161- M170+ M21- M223- M227- M253+ M258+ M26- M307+ M72- P109- P19+ P259- P30+ P37.2- P38+ Given these and past results, are there any new SNPs you feel there would be a benefit from testing? I've recently had the basic test done at 23andMe. I have no idea whether any of those specific results are of value aside from the fact that they too classified me I1. Any guidance would be appreciated. Ron Bartlett

Got results today.. Results Z58+ Z63- Z131- Peter Golden Y-search: HWKFT

I am kit 123861, ySearch 28MCF. I have just tested Z58-. Where does that leave me? Which other Z* SNPs should I consider next. I believe I am in the I1 AS-generic group. Correct me if that is incorrect. Carl Sheffield

Z58- should then do Z63. We have a pretty good population of Z63+ Z58- There is also the parallel Z131 according to the 1000 Genomes people. But so far we have found no one Z131+ I had you as either generic or AS3???? Your result rules out AS3. Also I1-ML was a possibility with your low DYS385 values. But your 38-67 markers seem to rule that clade out. You could be an ancient generic connected with Z63+? I'd recommend that snp test. -----Original Message----- From: Carl Sheffield Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z58- I am kit 123861, ySearch 28MCF. I have just tested Z58-. Where does that leave me? Which other Z* SNPs should I consider next. I believe I am in the I1 AS-generic group. Correct me if that is incorrect. Carl Sheffield ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kit 64529 - YSearch X73PB - Frame I1-AS 'Maverick' - also Z60+ Julie Frame Falk -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:26 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z60 Derived Just got my FTDNA Z60 result today: Z60+ Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

dO YOU mean the L803+ Frame is Z60+? -----Original Message----- From: Julie Frame Falk Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:48 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Z60 Derived Kit 64529 - YSearch X73PB - Frame I1-AS 'Maverick' - also Z60+ Julie Frame Falk -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 8:26 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z60 Derived Just got my FTDNA Z60 result today: Z60+ Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just got my FTDNA Z60 result today: Z60+ Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

Do you believe that the I migration into Europe may have taken different paths, with one taking an easterly approach? -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 8:15 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Are the I2a people in Bosnia the ancestors of the I2a1 people in France? No! I2 came from eastern or south central Europe.  I2a came from same sort of place.   The fate of I2a1 is not tied to that of I2a2.   They may have completely separate histories.  I think that both were carried by the Neolithic - in different directions and possibly at different points in time, by different people, who did not necessarily follow the same path of migration.    I thought that I2a2, with the Mediterranean branch of Neolithic migration, tended to head around the Mediterranean and the tip of Spain and northward to France and Great Britain, leaving distinctive archeology, while other groups followed the Neolithic migration westward from basically the Danube River valley, thence across the great river valleys of Europe.   Nothing about that alone specifies when various subclades originated or when they were carried where they went.   Some of them could also have been early travellers up the river valleys toward France for all I know.    There were still westward migrations at the time of Christ.   However I rather doubt that all of I2a is that young in western Europe.  In fact I'm pretty sure that I2a2 distinctively settled where the Neolithic megastructure people did - along the coast between Ireland and England, having sailed up from Spain. If I2a2 had moved westward at around the time of Christ, it would be a Germanic marker, and it isn't.   If it went westward off the steps in 800 BC it would be a Celtic marker, and it isn't.    Dora ________________________________ From: Bernie Cullen <berniecullen@gmail.com> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Are the I2a people in Bosnia the ancestors of the I2a1 people in France? No! As FTDNA I2a (I-P37.2) Project co-administrator I get some questions from our members, and I have decided to start posting some of the questions and answers to the hg I group for your comments etc..--Bernie Question: "I was wondering about one thing.  I found this map: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#I2 It shows a large concentration of I2a in the area of Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia.  I take it that my brother's I2a1 subgroup started in western Europe but was perhaps part of a larger group from the above area before that?" My answer: About the large Dinaric I2a2 group in central and eastern Europe: there are several groups of I2a and none of them are the ancestors of the other, and none is really a subset of the other. (When we get to more recent times and more specific haplogroups like I2a1b1a that kind of thinking makes more sense). ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As FTDNA I2a (I-P37.2) Project co-administrator I get some questions from our members, and I have decided to start posting some of the questions and answers to the hg I group for your comments etc..--Bernie Question: "I was wondering about one thing. I found this map: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#I2 It shows a large concentration of I2a in the area of Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia. I take it that my brother's I2a1 subgroup started in western Europe but was perhaps part of a larger group from the above area before that?" My answer: About the large Dinaric I2a2 group in central and eastern Europe: there are several groups of I2a and none of them are the ancestors of the other, and none is really a subset of the other. (When we get to more recent times and more specific haplogroups like I2a1b1a that kind of thinking makes more sense). Until very recently, human populations were very small and most paternal lines died out. 5,000 years ago our I-M26 paternal ancestors were already expanding in population size and were spread around westernmost Europe, we know this because of the skeletons in the Treilles cave and also because there are different groups of I-M26 with different 67 marker STR patterns with different geographic distributions. But 5,000 years ago, there was no Dinaric I2a2 group, they didn't start their population expansion until about 2,500 years ago. Before that we don't know where they were or how numerous they were because they didn't leave any traces, they left only one surviving male line from 5,000+ plus years ago to about 2,500 years ago. Sometime after around 2,500 years ago, the Dinaric people became associated with the Slavic tribes (or some other group which later became absorbed by the Slavic and other peoples) and expanded all over not just Bosnia but all of Eastern Europe and beyond. So after 2,500 years ago we can make theories about where the homeland of the I2a2 Dinaric people was, how long ago they made their migrations etc But my main point is that the I2a1 (I-M26) people were already a relatively thriving population in places like Spain and France before the I2a2 people in Bosnia etc. had their big boom. So we didn't necessarily come from there. See this post by haplogroup I expert Ken Nordtvedt. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2011-12/1325371169 He mentions 11 main branches of haplogroup I and none are the ancestors of each other. We might be able to draw a tree showing the branching of the 11 different groups, but back when the groups had common ancestors, the groups didn't exist as we know them today. (But it might be correct to say that some British I2a1 group is the descendant of some French I2a1 group, because back when the British and French groups had a common ancestor the French group was already thriving and has continued in France until the present day). That's a good mailing list to read or subscribe to if you are interested in haplogroup I, you can also try dna-forums.org and I have heard of a DNA-Newbie mailing list although I haven't looked at it in a long time. Also see my trees here (check for my other blog posts too): http://cullengene.blogspot.com/2010/08/updated-haplogroup-i2a-tree.html In my drawing, populations weren't steadily expanding until the green bushy part towards the more recent right side of the tree. Before that, only single paternal lines have survived until the present.

I2 came from eastern or south central Europe.  I2a came from same sort of place.   The fate of I2a1 is not tied to that of I2a2.   They may have completely separate histories.  I think that both were carried by the Neolithic - in different directions and possibly at different points in time, by different people, who did not necessarily follow the same path of migration.    I thought that I2a2, with the Mediterranean branch of Neolithic migration, tended to head around the Mediterranean and the tip of Spain and northward to France and Great Britain, leaving distinctive archeology, while other groups followed the Neolithic migration westward from basically the Danube River valley, thence across the great river valleys of Europe.   Nothing about that alone specifies when various subclades originated or when they were carried where they went.   Some of them could also have been early travellers up the river valleys toward France for all I know.    There were still westward migrations at the time of Christ.   However I rather doubt that all of I2a is that young in western Europe.  In fact I'm pretty sure that I2a2 distinctively settled where the Neolithic megastructure people did - along the coast between Ireland and England, having sailed up from Spain. If I2a2 had moved westward at around the time of Christ, it would be a Germanic marker, and it isn't.   If it went westward off the steps in 800 BC it would be a Celtic marker, and it isn't.    Dora ________________________________ From: Bernie Cullen <berniecullen@gmail.com> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:19 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Are the I2a people in Bosnia the ancestors of the I2a1 people in France? No! As FTDNA I2a (I-P37.2) Project co-administrator I get some questions from our members, and I have decided to start posting some of the questions and answers to the hg I group for your comments etc..--Bernie Question: "I was wondering about one thing.  I found this map: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#I2 It shows a large concentration of I2a in the area of Bosnia/Herzegovina, Croatia.  I take it that my brother's I2a1 subgroup started in western Europe but was perhaps part of a larger group from the above area before that?" My answer: About the large Dinaric I2a2 group in central and eastern Europe: there are several groups of I2a and none of them are the ancestors of the other, and none is really a subset of the other. (When we get to more recent times and more specific haplogroups like I2a1b1a that kind of thinking makes more sense).

Thanks Ken. Needless to say I am a proselyte in the world of SNPs but determined to test every available SNP downstream of Z59. Currently waiting on Z60 and hoping to eventually gain a better understanding of L803. I was also interested in tMRCA of Z63 and Z59 but if I'm reading your tree correctly that would have to be a heck of a long time ago! Thanks for all you do for I1, Ken. Let's hope 2012 sees more organized and robust testing of key I1 SNPs and also faster availability of new ones in the FTDNA catalogue! Kind regards Julie Frame Falk <<From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:33 AM To: Julie Frame Falk ; y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Age of Z59 Ages of snps can not directly be measured (estimated), only bracketed between earlier and later tree nodes which can be age estimated. See "Tree for I1" for Z59 location at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net>>

Not everyone joins one of the haplogroup projects. I probably found him in another database such as "Norway" or "Scandinavia", etc. In the past when I was hungary for more data, I looked virtually everywhere for haplotypes. He has 111 markers and seems not a SMGF person. -----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 9:22 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z59/Z140 Split Ken ~ Thanks a lot for your reply concerning the arising Z59+ Z140- and A59+ Z140+ issue. But there is a question as we don't know who "Aurdal of Norway" is? In your reply you said: "But you three with 111 markers --- you, Suomela, Aurdal of Norway --- are related relatively recently." In looking of the FTDNA I1 AS9b (AS16) bunch, I can't find a person (Aurdal of Norway) who matches. Sorry for the trouble. Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken ~ Thanks a lot for your reply concerning the arising Z59+ Z140- and A59+ Z140+ issue. But there is a question as we don't know who "Aurdal of Norway" is? In your reply you said: "But you three with 111 markers --- you, Suomela, Aurdal of Norway --- are related relatively recently." In looking of the FTDNA I1 AS9b (AS16) bunch, I can't find a person (Aurdal of Norway) who matches. Sorry for the trouble. Roy Silfven rsilfven@bendcable.com

The I1 subhaplogroup I1d2 L205+ members have agressively expanded to 111 STR markers. It has some clear identifying STR repeat values in the 68-111 set DYS485 = 13 DYS638 = 11 DYS650 = 16 DYS495 = 18 (usually) This is useful, because with the first 67 markers I1d2 haplotypes are hardly different from basic I1d L22+ haplotypes which is a much, much larger group.

Dear List This may be wishful thinking on my part, but has an estimate of the age of Z59 been made please? TIA Julie Frame Falk

-----Original Message----- From: Roy Silfven While you may already be aware, one of my close 67 STR matches pointed out to me that one of the members of the AS9b (AS16) Project (to which I/we belong) is reporting derived (+) for Z58, Z59, and Z140. There are 2 other members (including myself) who are derived (+) for Z58, Z59, BUT ancestral (-) for Z140. Also, there is one member Z58+ and Z140- (not having tested Z59). Kit Z58 Z59 Z140 25496 + + + 121192 + - 154151 + + - 181479 + + - I'm confused by the STR vis à vi SNP usage to group results. Is this an apples versus oranges division? Or, is the AS9b (AS16) group about to split apart forming new groups? There are more DYS19 = 16 haplotypes in I1 than the subset of them also having other unique STR values and forming AS16. But you three with 111 markers --- you, Suomela, Aurdal of Norway --- are related relatively recently. Those being Z59+ but Z140- should definitely test Z60. Z60 splits people into two branches. Also, those with DYS19 = 16 and believe they are in AS16 should do the 68-111 panel to see if they share your unique STR values in that package. Clades are a broader category than snp-tagged haplogroups. Clades can also be identified by unusually robust populations of close haplotypes sharing the same unusual set of STR values.

Ages of snps can not directly be measured (estimated), only bracketed between earlier and later tree nodes which can be age estimated. See "Tree for I1" for Z59 location at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net -----Original Message----- From: Julie Frame Falk Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 11:46 PM To: Y-DNA Haplogroup I Subject: [yDNAhgI] Age of Z59 Dear List This may be wishful thinking on my part, but has an estimate of the age of Z59 been made please? TIA Julie Frame Falk ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello list! I've just got new fresh results: (FTDNA: N34614, Ysearch: DJJT3) Z63+ Z59- Z131- The 67-111 panel has also been completed. Pablo

I find four Z63+ outside of T2 and a large bunch of Z63+ within T2. I don't believe any T2 has been found Z63- -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 5:46 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ How many Z63+ you have? Have non-T2 significant share? -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Found a 4th Z63+ outside of T2 (all basically I1-generic). His haplotype is different from all the others as well. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 5:02 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Z63+ is turning out interesting. I have three Z63+ not part of T2, and each quite different in haplotype from each other and from T2. Ancient branch offs! -----Original Message----- From: Pablo Carballada Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2012 4:07 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Another Z63+ Hello list! I've just got new fresh results: (FTDNA: N34614, Ysearch: DJJT3) Z63+ Z59- Z131- The 67-111 panel has also been completed. Pablo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4730 - Release Date: 01/08/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message