Why would you want to do Z58 if positive for Z`138 and Z139? Makes very minimal sense to me. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:07 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z73 SNP test Good morning Could someone advise if the Z73 snp test is one that I should take now that it is available at FTDNA. It was also suggested in a recent project group email that I backtrack and do Z58,would that be necessary ? Thanks Ray Jenkins I1-AS@ Z138+/Z139+ Ysearch AETEN ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I will respond in detail to many of the other questions/comments raised in regards to my initial thread later. Before then, I'd like to mention that I did briefly cover L813 in the PDF document. Eleven people have done the L813 test (by sometime in February 2012) and four of them came out as L813+ with the remaining seven people coming out as L813-. So that is a very small sample, and I didn't include any such small sample related results in the online tool. By today maybe more results are in. However, I can say that there is already a tentative association of the SNP L813+ allele, with the STR branch "I1.1100*". Here are the raw numbers so far: five people within the I1.1100* branch have done the L813 test, and four of them came out as L813+. The remaining six people, who did the test, have all came out as L813-. And all the people tested appear to be not closely related as far as I can tell. I will keep an eye on I1.1100* (which is a subbranch of I1.110*) when more L813 results come in. For http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=GBWJA I note he is in I1.1100*, and so far four out of five of his branch members have tested as L813+. So he would indeed be a possible candidate for that mutation too. Terry On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 7:35 AM, Ole Selmer <ole@selmer.org> wrote: > You could try the L813. This new SNP has been found derived in all 6 uN2 > tested so far, bur ancestral in all 8 Norse tested. I think you are Norse? > > Regards Ole > > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] På vegne af > buddhapup@gmail.com > Sendt: 2. marts 2012 19:10 > Til: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Emne: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only for > y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis > (only for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=GBWJA > > I looked at new online tool for Haplotype Analysis. Excellent tool for > putting together information. My issue is that I am I1d (L22+ P109- > L300- L287- L258- L205-) Kit No: 177347 and I have no other tests at > the moment. Anyone aware of any new recent tests afoot or on the > horizon for a L22+ who has tested negative for all downstream? > > Regards, Ritch > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Terry, Your clustering method may work well, but as you say some branches may converge. So what's the advantage of presenting your tree when we know its basic structure doesn't represent history? What useful information do your different branches give us? Why not keep your tree and branch codes in the background (let someone click to it if he wants) and just present the results (matches in someone's cluster, maps, recommended SNPs)? Or am I missing something useful about the tree? Bernie Terry tdrobb@gmail.com wrote: Finally, don't expect total accuracy. The STR 67-marker Tree that is constructed, can only ever be an approximation to the true genealogical tree. Mistakes necessarily happen due to chance convergence of STR results. All we get to see are the leaves (people) at the end of the branches, and if we are lucky a bunch ("cluster") of leaves will all come from the same branch. But sometimes two distinct branches will have their leaves intertwined ("convergence"), which is the main complication to be aware of when reading the results. Some spurious results are to be expected.

Diana, There are people out there who have paper-trails and know their ancestry and place of origin, and they have done all relevant SNP tests, and they have identified all their close STR marker matches. All the tool can do for such people is hopefully confirm what they already know. But there is another group of people who don't have such information. Those people surely would appreciate the output from the free tool I provided. In the last few hours since posting I have received private emails confirming to me the utility of the tool in such situations. In contrast, I found your earlier, and public, comments unnecessarily harsh and discouraging and now contrary to what others are seeing. If you can't see the utility for others, then fine. Terry On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Diana Matthiesen <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > Terry, > > I'm certainly not criticizing your sincerity or generosity. I take it > as a given that we are all sincere - and obviously working hard to > help others, without thought of compensation. > > I suspect I'm not understanding the function of the tool. And I guess > I reacted negatively because I wouldn't want one of my project members > to see it, then think they needed to be SNP tested, when other family > members have already been exhaustively tested. > > If someone (e.g., an adoptee or NPE) has a significant Y-DNA STR match > with one of my project members, I will get an email notification from > FTDNA, and they will show up as a match on the "Matches" tab of my > members' pages, at which point I contact them. In all probability, I > will ask them to join my project, regardless of their surname. IOW, > once there's a match, they don't need to seek me out, I will seek them > out. > > I guess I'm having trouble putting myself in the shoes of someone > without a project admin to help them and who is that much "at a loss" > at where to begin. I mean, STRAUB is a German name, and my > great-grandfather spoke German. The question was never where our > origin in Europe was, it was only where in Germany it was. > > But, yes, I realize not everyone starts with that amount of > information. There's obviously more than one way to look at this. > > Diana > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:35 AM > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only > > for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > > > Diana, > > Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of the > > tool. > > > > Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and where > > your > > project members originate from, and the various SNP that they might > > carry. > > That is great. > > > > With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as input > > the > > 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool gives > > some > > facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In the > > example > > you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would > > probably have > > Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns out), > > and it > > also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your > > example), and > > that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, > > your > > example is in the 20% minority). > > > > And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is full > > of > > people with the same surname - information that the tool did not > > use. If > > the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family history, > > and was > > not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have > > found that > > other surname. > > > > So the tool got things right for your particular example - perhaps > > your > > knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for > > *anyone*, > > provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited to > > many I1 > > and I2 people at present) to create the tree. > > > > Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an honest > > and > > sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to all I1 > > and I2 > > people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing for > > R1b and > > R1a people? > > > > Terry > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen > > <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > > > > > Hello Terry, > > > > > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems > > here. > > > > > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB > > #23492 > > > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit number, > > you > > > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > > > > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the same > > > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR > > marker > > > levels (107/111 or better): > > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > > > > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been exhaustively > > SNP > > > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. Unless > > a > > > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for any > > of > > > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any > > reason > > > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > > > > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see how > > this > > > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to > > take > > > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family been > > SNP > > > tested, and what were their results?" > > > > > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to > > test, > > > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one of > > the > > > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to > > > > their > > > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or > > close > > > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67- > > marker > > > > STR > > > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of > > > > organising > > > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > > > systematically > > > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch > > Code". > > > > This > > > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry > > System" > > > > used in > > > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > > > > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently > > only > > > > works for > > > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get > > your > > > > Branch > > > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame > > for > > > > the > > > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch > > Code > > > > in all > > > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your > > > > likely path > > > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I > > > > used, and > > > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed > > tree > > > > showing > > > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 > > are > > > > connected. > > > > > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA- > > HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

Thank you Diana, I found my kit number. Mudary / Gary > From: Diana@danishdemes.org > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; buddhapup@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 13:44:26 -0500 > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > You could test L813: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#Top > > And L840... > > Diana > > > > From: buddhapup@gmail.com > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:10 PM > <snip> > > > > My issue is that I am I1d (L22+ P109- > > L300- L287- L258- L205-) Kit No: 177347 and I have no other tests at > > the moment. Anyone aware of any new recent tests afoot or on the > > horizon for a L22+ who has tested negative for all downstream? > > > > Regards, Ritch > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Diana, Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of the tool. Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and where your project members originate from, and the various SNP that they might carry. That is great. With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as input the 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool gives some facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In the example you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would probably have Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns out), and it also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your example), and that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, your example is in the 20% minority). And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is full of people with the same surname - information that the tool did not use. If the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family history, and was not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have found that other surname. So the tool got things right for your particular example - perhaps your knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for *anyone*, provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited to many I1 and I2 people at present) to create the tree. Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an honest and sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to all I1 and I2 people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing for R1b and R1a people? Terry On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > Hello Terry, > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems here. > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB #23492 > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit number, you > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the same > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR marker > levels (107/111 or better): > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been exhaustively SNP > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. Unless a > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for any of > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any reason > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see how this > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to take > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family been SNP > tested, and what were their results?" > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to test, > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one of the > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > Diana > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to > > their > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or close > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67-marker > > STR > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of > > organising > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > systematically > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch Code". > > This > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry System" > > used in > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently only > > works for > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get your > > Branch > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame for > > the > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch Code > > in all > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your > > likely path > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I > > used, and > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed tree > > showing > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 are > > connected. > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > > > Terry > > > >

You could try the L813. This new SNP has been found derived in all 6 uN2 tested so far, bur ancestral in all 8 Norse tested. I think you are Norse? Regards Ole -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] På vegne af buddhapup@gmail.com Sendt: 2. marts 2012 19:10 Til: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Emne: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=GBWJA I looked at new online tool for Haplotype Analysis. Excellent tool for putting together information. My issue is that I am I1d (L22+ P109- L300- L287- L258- L205-) Kit No: 177347 and I have no other tests at the moment. Anyone aware of any new recent tests afoot or on the horizon for a L22+ who has tested negative for all downstream? Regards, Ritch ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Terry You can count me as a strong supporter of your new tool.  I have been digging for information on my DNA roots for years now and through reading the postings, asking direct questions to Ken Nordtvedt and doing quite a bit of testing including deep clade and snp tests, I learned quite a bit but am no expert. Your earlier information and charts were also quite helpful and confirmed what I had learned from Ken that my I1d L22 folks likely came from north Germany/Denmark or perhaps Norway/Sweden. I also have my data in SMGF and Ancestry DNA and look for matches there periodically. Then along comes your new tool. Plug in my FTDNA kit number and there's my closest matches in FTDNA and Ysearch and also the map to show where the most of my Branch codes are located - in this case France. (I note that your most recent tool shifted me from a 11.110 to a 11.111 and that that changes your map.) The interesting thing about that is my surname is Sinclair and the roots of Sinclair/St. Clairs are in France, but of Norse descent.) So my conclusion is that I spent years getting a picture the hard way. I come to your tool and there is a very good synopsis of what I have/am learning all in one spot. Click on the ysearch number and up comes your close match person's Haplotype so that you can see which markers differ from yours and by how much. Very neat. I'm impressed and thankful. I'm sure my R1B1 Sinclair folks would love to use this tool also, so I hope you will carry on with your work and more hobbyists will benefit. Cheers, Ron Sinclair

There are common questions that people often have in regards to their 67-marker STR test results. Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or close haplotype matches etc. To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67-marker STR result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of organising results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then systematically label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch Code". This Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry System" used in genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently only works for haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get your Branch Code, and then the following output: 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame for the common ancestor of the very closest match; 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch Code in all countries/regions across Europe; 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your likely path based on your Branch Code. Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I used, and that link also gives additional details such as the computed tree showing the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 are connected. Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. Terry

You could test L813: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#Top And L840... Diana > From: buddhapup@gmail.com > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 1:10 PM <snip> > > My issue is that I am I1d (L22+ P109- > L300- L287- L258- L205-) Kit No: 177347 and I have no other tests at > the moment. Anyone aware of any new recent tests afoot or on the > horizon for a L22+ who has tested negative for all downstream? > > Regards, Ritch

http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=GBWJA I looked at new online tool for Haplotype Analysis. Excellent tool for putting together information. My issue is that I am I1d (L22+ P109- L300- L287- L258- L205-) Kit No: 177347 and I have no other tests at the moment. Anyone aware of any new recent tests afoot or on the horizon for a L22+ who has tested negative for all downstream? Regards, Ritch

As far as I can judge the output, this is a useful tool, and the output is user friendly. Great work, Terry. It tells me the TMRCA of the closest match, but I wouldn't know which one of the close matches listed he would be. However. that's a minor issue I guess is easy to fix. My immediate question is: will you run an updated analysis if this tool motivates more people to test 67 STR markers? :-) H.Styri > From: Terry [tdrobb@gmail.com] > Sent: 2012-03-02 05:46:04 MET > To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com, genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to their > 67-marker STR test results. > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or close > haplotype matches etc. > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67-marker STR > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of organising > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then systematically > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch Code". This > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry System" used in > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently only works for > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get your Branch > Code, and then the following output: > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame for the > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch Code in all > countries/regions across Europe; > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your likely path > based on your Branch Code. > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I used, and > that link also gives additional details such as the computed tree showing > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 are > connected. > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > Terry > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Terry, I'm terribly sorry that my critique offended you, and I do apologize. I thought you wanted honest reactions. I have a 16,000+ page genealogy web site, most of it family group sheets. There isn't a week that goes by without my getting a message from someone one raking me over the coals for a mistake. I've learned not to take it personally. My site is the better for it. Diana http://dgmweb.net/GenealogyHome.html > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 10:12 AM > To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only > for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > Diana, > > There are people out there who have paper-trails and know their > ancestry > and place of origin, and they have done all relevant SNP tests, and > they > have identified all their close STR marker matches. All the tool can > do for > such people is hopefully confirm what they already know. > > But there is another group of people who don't have such > information. Those > people surely would appreciate the output from the free tool I > provided. In > the last few hours since posting I have received private emails > confirming > to me the utility of the tool in such situations. In contrast, I > found your > earlier, and public, comments unnecessarily harsh and discouraging > and now > contrary to what others are seeing. If you can't see the utility > for > others, then fine. > > Terry > > > On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 12:07 AM, Diana Matthiesen > <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > > > Terry, > > > > I'm certainly not criticizing your sincerity or generosity. I > take it > > as a given that we are all sincere - and obviously working hard to > > help others, without thought of compensation. > > > > I suspect I'm not understanding the function of the tool. And I > guess > > I reacted negatively because I wouldn't want one of my project > members > > to see it, then think they needed to be SNP tested, when other > family > > members have already been exhaustively tested. > > > > If someone (e.g., an adoptee or NPE) has a significant Y-DNA STR > match > > with one of my project members, I will get an email notification > from > > FTDNA, and they will show up as a match on the "Matches" tab of my > > members' pages, at which point I contact them. In all > probability, I > > will ask them to join my project, regardless of their surname. > IOW, > > once there's a match, they don't need to seek me out, I will seek > them > > out. > > > > I guess I'm having trouble putting myself in the shoes of someone > > without a project admin to help them and who is that much "at a > loss" > > at where to begin. I mean, STRAUB is a German name, and my > > great-grandfather spoke German. The question was never where our > > origin in Europe was, it was only where in Germany it was. > > > > But, yes, I realize not everyone starts with that amount of > > information. There's obviously more than one way to look at this. > > > > Diana > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > > > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry > > > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:35 AM > > > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis > (only > > > for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > > > > > Diana, > > > Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of > the > > > tool. > > > > > > Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and > where > > > your > > > project members originate from, and the various SNP that they > might > > > carry. > > > That is great. > > > > > > With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as > input > > > the > > > 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool > gives > > > some > > > facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In > the > > > example > > > you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would > > > probably have > > > Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns > out), > > > and it > > > also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your > > > example), and > > > that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, > > > your > > > example is in the 20% minority). > > > > > > And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is > full > > > of > > > people with the same surname - information that the tool did not > > > use. If > > > the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family > history, > > > and was > > > not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have > > > found that > > > other surname. > > > > > > So the tool got things right for your particular example - > perhaps > > > your > > > knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for > > > *anyone*, > > > provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited > to > > > many I1 > > > and I2 people at present) to create the tree. > > > > > > Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an > honest > > > and > > > sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to > all I1 > > > and I2 > > > people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing > for > > > R1b and > > > R1a people? > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen > > > <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > > > > > > > Hello Terry, > > > > > > > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems > > > here. > > > > > > > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB > > > #23492 > > > > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit > number, > > > you > > > > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > > > > > > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the > same > > > > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR > > > marker > > > > levels (107/111 or better): > > > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > > > > > > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been > exhaustively > > > SNP > > > > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. > Unless > > > a > > > > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for > any > > > of > > > > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any > > > reason > > > > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > > > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see > how > > > this > > > > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to > > > take > > > > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family > been > > > SNP > > > > tested, and what were their results?" > > > > > > > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to > > > test, > > > > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one > of > > > the > > > > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > > > > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > > > > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards > to > > > > > their > > > > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > > > > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or > > > close > > > > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > > > > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's > 67- > > > marker > > > > > STR > > > > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way > of > > > > > organising > > > > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > > > > systematically > > > > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch > > > Code". > > > > > This > > > > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry > > > System" > > > > > used in > > > > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an > ancestor. > > > > > > > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > > > > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently > > > only > > > > > works for > > > > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will > get > > > your > > > > > Branch > > > > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > > > > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time- > frame > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > > > > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your > Branch > > > Code > > > > > in all > > > > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > > > > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for > your > > > > > likely path > > > > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > > > > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple > methodology I > > > > > used, and > > > > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed > > > tree > > > > > showing > > > > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and > I2 > > > are > > > > > connected. > > > > > > > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > > > > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you > go. > > > > > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA- > > > HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA- > HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Terry, What kind of feedback are you looking for? I think the most interesting parts are how it shows some of your closest matches and how it makes maps. My suggestion would be to add a lot more text and explanations. What exactly are we looking at? What information do you want us to get from the output? Maybe some sort of zoom function with a time scale (matches/map within 500 years, then 1,000 years, etc. or some sort of arbitrary scale if you don't want to be so specific in your time predictions). For some kit numbers I get only very close matches, for other kit numbers I get mostly very distant matches (but I only know this because I know the names of the matches etc. ahead of time). Also, I don't see the value of featuring your STR branch codes so prominently. For predicting which SNPs to test, I don't see much value in the tool right now. A completely dumb method of starting at the top with M253, M26, M223 etc and working down to more specific SNPs will work fine and a Deep Clade test can be easily ordered at FTDNA, and anyone who is interested enough to use your tool will probably be interested enough to find someone like Diana or this email list or a haplogroup project and get a smarter recommendation. How important is it that your computed STR tree doesn't completely reproduce the actual Y-SNP tree? Has your I1 tree made any useful predictions that have been confirmed by the new Z-SNPs? If your tree doesn't reproduce our actual paternal history, maybe your tool can still be useful, but I think you should make it something like a super-Ysearch or super-Y-DNA-match list and not make your tree the focus of intention. Bernie

Terry, you don't have my Bowman cousin's kit # and he is I1-generic. #201437. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Terry [mailto:tdrobb@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:35 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) Diana, Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of the tool. Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and where your project members originate from, and the various SNP that they might carry. That is great. With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as input the 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool gives some facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In the example you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would probably have Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns out), and it also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your example), and that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, your example is in the 20% minority). And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is full of people with the same surname - information that the tool did not use. If the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family history, and was not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have found that other surname. So the tool got things right for your particular example - perhaps your knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for *anyone*, provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited to many I1 and I2 people at present) to create the tree. Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an honest and sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to all I1 and I2 people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing for R1b and R1a people? Terry On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > Hello Terry, > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems here. > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB #23492 > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit number, you > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the same > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR marker > levels (107/111 or better): > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been exhaustively SNP > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. Unless a > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for any of > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any reason > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see how this > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to take > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family been SNP > tested, and what were their results?" > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to test, > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one of the > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > Diana > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to > > their > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or close > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67-marker > > STR > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of > > organising > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > systematically > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch Code". > > This > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry System" > > used in > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently only > > works for > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get your > > Branch > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame for > > the > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch Code > > in all > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your > > likely path > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I > > used, and > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed tree > > showing > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 are > > connected. > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > > > Terry > > > >

Hi, The tool is very interesting, but when I entered my FTDNA F177090 or ysearch GQ2C3, nothing was shown, I'm in the P109+ group. Thank you in advance. Mudary / Gary

Terry, I'm certainly not criticizing your sincerity or generosity. I take it as a given that we are all sincere - and obviously working hard to help others, without thought of compensation. I suspect I'm not understanding the function of the tool. And I guess I reacted negatively because I wouldn't want one of my project members to see it, then think they needed to be SNP tested, when other family members have already been exhaustively tested. If someone (e.g., an adoptee or NPE) has a significant Y-DNA STR match with one of my project members, I will get an email notification from FTDNA, and they will show up as a match on the "Matches" tab of my members' pages, at which point I contact them. In all probability, I will ask them to join my project, regardless of their surname. IOW, once there's a match, they don't need to seek me out, I will seek them out. I guess I'm having trouble putting myself in the shoes of someone without a project admin to help them and who is that much "at a loss" at where to begin. I mean, STRAUB is a German name, and my great-grandfather spoke German. The question was never where our origin in Europe was, it was only where in Germany it was. But, yes, I realize not everyone starts with that amount of information. There's obviously more than one way to look at this. Diana > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Terry > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 6:35 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Online Tool for Haplotype Analysis (only > for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 at present) > > Diana, > Wow - I think you have completely underestimated the utility of the > tool. > > Undoubtedly, you know a great deal about your own project and where > your > project members originate from, and the various SNP that they might > carry. > That is great. > > With the tool that I posted - as a free service - it takes as input > the > 67-marker STR values and nothing else, and from that the tool gives > some > facts about geographic distribution and SNP allele status. In the > example > you cited, the tool would have said that the individual would > probably have > Germany as a place of ancestry (which is correct as it turns out), > and it > also says that they would be Z58+ (which is correct in your > example), and > that they would be Z139+/Z138+ with 80% chance (as it turns out, > your > example is in the 20% minority). > > And the tool gives a list of close STR matching people, and is full > of > people with the same surname - information that the tool did not > use. If > the individual had been adopted and didn't know any family history, > and was > not a member of your specific project, then the tool would have > found that > other surname. > > So the tool got things right for your particular example - perhaps > your > knew all that information anyway. But the tool can do that for > *anyone*, > provided I have their kit number and STR data (which is limited to > many I1 > and I2 people at present) to create the tree. > > Surely the output is useful? Why are you so negative about an honest > and > sincere effort on my part to share some useful information to all I1 > and I2 > people? Perhaps I shouldn't waste my time and do the same thing for > R1b and > R1a people? > > Terry > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Diana Matthiesen > <Diana@danishdemes.org>wrote: > > > Hello Terry, > > > > I commend you for your efforts, but I'm afraid I see problems > here. > > > > I'm the admin of the STRAUB Y-DNA Surname Project, and STRAUB > #23492 > > is my Hg I1-AS5 first cousin. If you search on his kit number, > you > > get a list of STRAUB, STROUP, STROPP, CRUMP, and BELEW: > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi?Kit=23492 > > > > Everyone on this list (as of this morning) is a member of the same > > family in my STRAUB project, and they are matching at high STR > marker > > levels (107/111 or better): > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/Straub/StraubDNA-results-HgI1-AS5.html > > > > Several have been deep SNP tested, and one has been exhaustively > SNP > > tested, even to the extent of discovering L592+ in a WTY. Unless > a > > new SNP is discovered and needs testing, I see no reason for any > of > > them to be further SNP tested, and I especially don't see any > reason > > for any of them to test a SNP upstream of Z58: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L592 > > > > I'm sorry to be a wet blanket, here, but I really don't see how > this > > decision can be automated, at all. There are other factors to > take > > into account, such as, "Have any other members of this family been > SNP > > tested, and what were their results?" > > > > If someone can't figure out, for themselves, what they need to > test, > > my best advice is to ask on this list - or privately ask one of > the > > admins of the Hg I1 project. > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > From: Behalf Of Terry > > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 11:46 PM > > > > > > There are common questions that people often have in regards to > > > their > > > 67-marker STR test results. > > > > > > Such as place of geographic origin, likely SNP mutations, or > close > > > haplotype matches etc. > > > > > > To answer such questions it helps to know where someone's 67- > marker > > > STR > > > result fits in with everyone else's result. A rational way of > > > organising > > > results is to compute a hierarchical cluster tree, and then > > > systematically > > > label each person in that tree according to an STR "Branch > Code". > > > This > > > Branch Code labelling system is very similar to the "Henry > System" > > > used in > > > genealogy for numbering the known descendants of an ancestor. > > > > > > Easiest to see what I mean, by checking out the tool at: > > > > > > http://www.goggo.com/cgi-bin/branchFind.cgi > > > > > > You can enter your FTDNA Kit Number or Ysearch ID (currently > only > > > works for > > > haplogroups I1 and I2), and if the entry is valid, you will get > your > > > Branch > > > Code, and then the following output: > > > > > > 1) a short list of close matches, and the estimated time-frame > for > > > the > > > common ancestor of the very closest match; > > > > > > 2) a map showing the frequency of occurrence of your Branch > Code > > > in all > > > countries/regions across Europe; > > > > > > 3) a list of SNP mutation pathways, with suggestions for your > > > likely path > > > based on your Branch Code. > > > > > > Finally, there is a link that discusses the simple methodology I > > > used, and > > > that link also gives additional details such as the computed > tree > > > showing > > > the "big picture" view of how people in y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 > are > > > connected. > > > > > > Eventually, I may add y-Haplogroups R1b and R1a. > > > > > > In the meantime, for I1 and I2 people, let me know how you go. > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA- > HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think that Haakon got it right. I also found the tool useful. Sam From: "Haakon Styri" <styri@online.no> As far as I can judge the output, this is a useful tool, and the output is user friendly. Great work, Terry. It tells me the TMRCA of the closest match, but I wouldn't know which one of the close matches listed he would be. However. that's a minor issue I guess is easy to fix. My immediate question is: will you run an updated analysis if this tool motivates more people to test 67 STR markers? :-) H.Styri

Hi Terry This is a interesting tool that you created for us rookies out here that breaks us away from concentrating on the FTDNA match results and gives us a new perspective on possible matches I am in the Z138+/Z139+ group and the same surname connections for me keep popping up with your tool as with some of the other info for the Z58 crowd that has recently been put on the web from Julie Frame Falk and Ken Nordtvedt. I don't have a paper trail to any of the matches but it does make for fascinating reading. So thank You to all Ray Jenkins I1-AS2 Z138+/Z139+ Ysearch AETEN

I finished proof-reading the Hg I1 SNP character matrix. In the process, I decided to add the SNPs from the FTDNA draft tree; and, in that process, I caved in and decided to add everyone from the Hg I1 table who appears to have tested more than just a backbone SNP. I'm still working on adding entries, but I did find something interesting along the way... So far, all those who have tested L840 are positive for it and, up til now, also positive for L22+ and P109+. http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#P109 However, I just found someone who is L840+, but L22-, P109-, and Z63+. http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#Z63 It appears L840 won't be subdividing P109, as hoped. It does appear to be upstream of both P109+ and Z63+, but is it upstream or downstream of M253? I've just ordered L840 for my I1-AS5 STRAUB, my I1-AS1 THOMPSON, and my I1-AS2 CORBIN. Diana