Over last couple days Marek Skarbek Kozietulski and I have fleshed out a new clade in I1xL22 and which is nicknamed I1-Iber. It’s core members are from Iberia, Latin America, and New Mexico USA. The core looks very young back to its tmrca; and there are hints it’s members include Iberian Jews of earlier centuries. YHRD database indicates a mother lode of members from Colombia, South America Marek and I have maybe a different view about how far it extends beyond these core members; that is one of the things which z series snp tests and 68-111 marker extensions of haplotypes can help resolve. The core haplotype is identified by following STR values: DYS390 = 23 DYS391 = 11 DYS385 = 13/15 DYS447 = 22 DYS461 = 11 DYS576 = 15 and of course the DYS462 = 12 and DYS511 = 9 associated with I1xL22 It would help establish the outer boundaries of this clade if its z-series snp status could be determined and some extensions to 111 markers made on its haplotypes. Being an I1 clade, with I1 not one of the regular haplogroups associated with Iberia, we would also like to find out if it has any membership beyond Iberia in Europe. So far we really have not found such, unless one really relaxes the match to the identifying STR values indicated above. Ken

Once the snp status of a clear cut clade is determined consistently for a couple members, it is pretty safe to assume others in the clade follow suit. This assumption might be weakened for outliers. For the generics, however, individuals can assume very little by the results of other generics, unless they are extremely close haplotypes. -----Original Message----- From: Lplantagenet Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:18 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] DF29 has arrived for I1 !!! That was quick! I've just sent an e-mail to my AS7E's telling them they don't need to request DF29 after all. I also asked for a couple of volunteers willing to test it, so that we don't have too unnecessary orders. The SNP page of the I1 project indicates that St. Clair is negative for Z58, Z63, and Z131. I didn't realise until I saw that page a couple of weeks ago that St. Clair had ordered any SNPs. Allred is negative for Z58 and Z63 and we are still waiting for Creed's results for Z131. I've already told two AS7Es that you recommend WTY and have asked for suggestions about raising the money. I think a lottery for the Childers might work if enough of them are interested--$15 per ticket and if you buy more than one ticket you increase your chance of winning. Lindsey ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I notice that Z141, Z62, and Z73 within I1xL22 are also now available in ftdna catalog. Later today I’ll outline my view of who might most be interested in these snps as well. Ken From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:07 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: DF29 has arrived for I1 !!! A slightly upstream snp discovered by the 1000 Genomes people has entered FTDNA catalog --- DF29. This should prove an interesting snp to test for by the surprisingly many generic I1xL22 folks who have turned up Z58- Z63- and presumably Z131- DF29 could divide this generic population into DF29+ and DF29- Also, several well established clades of I1xL22 have turned up Z58- Z63- Z131- Representatives of those clades should also test for DF29 to see if clade is derived or ancestral. An L22+ or two should test whether that division of I1 is ancestral or derived for DF29. 1000 Genomes suggests it will be derived. Ken

A slightly upstream snp discovered by the 1000 Genomes people has entered FTDNA catalog --- DF29. This should prove an interesting snp to test for by the surprisingly many generic I1xL22 folks who have turned up Z58- Z63- and presumably Z131- DF29 could divide this generic population into DF29+ and DF29- Also, several well established clades of I1xL22 have turned up Z58- Z63- Z131- Representatives of those clades should also test for DF29 to see if clade is derived or ancestral. An L22+ or two should test whether that division of I1 is ancestral or derived for DF29. 1000 Genomes suggests it will be derived. Ken

I don't know the exact situation but did you really check all possible I haplogroup from 1000 genomes ? > > Does anyone know the number of Y-chromosome bases sequenced by the 1000- > genomes project versus the number being sequenced by the expanded WTY > program at FTDNA? My impression was that a majority of the Y was > sequenced by "1000-genomes", which presumably would account for their > great success in finding new SNPs. By contrast, the last time I heard. > WTY was only sequencing around 200,000 to 300,000 bases on the Y, so > I've got to think their chances of finding new SNPs are much less than > those of the 1000-genomes project, although it is true that WTY has > managed to find even some fairly private SNPs. If 1000-genomes could be > persuaded to take some additional samples, such as those selected by > Julie and Aaron for maximum STR differences within their I1>Z63+ > project, the chances of finding a new SNP would seem to be much greater > than depending on WTY to find these new SNPs. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I think the 1000 genomes project was actually a complete sequence, with one caveat; on many samples they used cheaper methodology that used fewer reads of DNA and didn't actually get all of the genome, or else didn't necessarily get it accurately. Walk the Y is not a complete Y chromosome sequence but a set part of it, so if your ancestral SNPs happen to be elsewhere they won't be found. Knowing that, I'm personally inclined to have my own family wait until complete sequencing becomes available for under a thousand dollars; makes far more sense than spending $800 on a portion of what within several years will probably cost under a thousand dollars. Dora On 3/7/2012 12:49 PM, Lplantagenet wrote: > Does anyone know the number of Y-chromosome bases sequenced by the 1000- > genomes project versus the number being sequenced by the expanded WTY > program at FTDNA? My impression was that a majority of the Y was > sequenced by "1000-genomes", which presumably would account for their > great success in finding new SNPs. By contrast, the last time I heard. > WTY was only sequencing around 200,000 to 300,000 bases on the Y, so > I've got to think their chances of finding new SNPs are much less than > those of the 1000-genomes project, although it is true that WTY has > managed to find even some fairly private SNPs. If 1000-genomes could be > persuaded to take some additional samples, such as those selected by > Julie and Aaron for maximum STR differences within their I1>Z63+ > project, the chances of finding a new SNP would seem to be much greater > than depending on WTY to find these new SNPs. > > ************************************** > > How does one persuade 1000 Genomes to take samples? If there is any group which needs to find new SNP's, it is the large group negative for Z58, Z63, and Z 131. > > Lindsey > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No, the bottleneck theory isn't established. First, let's remind Stephen Oppenheimer and a few others ; they thought eastern survivors could only explain the data. More recently , see this blog : http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/2012/02/sundaland-home-of-eastern-mankind.html (actually I just don't understand how so many people started the bottleneck idea -with Africa only survivors - it's like the LGM in too many papers) There is a connection to haplogroup I as early settlements in Europe can only be on the [IJK] branch of the tree . Until recently we had some I2* . As more SNPs are allowing a better understanding of [IJ] tree we might be able to find out probable relationship with ancient lithic industries. I think this is the more difficult but also the more intersting part of the haplotype search. Dora wrote : > Toba eruption caused the genetic bottleneck, all survivors of which > lived in Africa. Some descendants later populated Eurasia. People > living on the Asian coast at the time of the eruption were probably > killed. It was a very long time before IJK, which appeared in Central > Asia. . > > Haplogroup I is quite broad enough a focus for this list. Emphasis is > on haplotype clusters, finding new SNP's, and anthropology since the > last ice age. > > Yours, > Dora > > > > On 3/7/2012 5:48 AM, Didier VERNADE wrote: > > List, > > > > This list is dedicated to I haplogroup , an early group in Europe. I would like to enlarge the picture and I would like to consider an approach of the early stages, those that > > eventually ended in the IJK then [IJ] and I haplogroups : M89 (F) → M523 → M429 → M170 . > > > > Mount Toba is a volcano that went into eruption 73000 years ago (+/- 3000) . I know that very early stages are now in discussion but my point is that the very migratory > > process is to be considered near the Toba's eruption date as it might have been influenced by this cataclysm. Link 1 is a map with mount Toba, north of Sumatra island, > > indicated by a black spot, the blue circle depicting a wide area where the effect of the eruption was probably too strong for a survival. > > http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/Oppenheimer-toba.jpg > > > > > >

I already tried it. They evidently aren't taking new people. Also there is no guarantee they will use your sample if they were to take one. They have a web site. Dora On 3/7/2012 12:49 PM, Lplantagenet wrote: >> ************************************** >> >> How does one persuade 1000 Genomes to take samples? If there is any group which needs to find new SNP's, it is the large group negative for Z58, Z63, and Z 131. >> >> Lindsey >> >>

So, to confirm that, Ken, you actually want us to write to Thomas Krahn? Last time someone suggested that it was the last thing they actually wanted anyone to do. I think it's time to try to get some more testing done on those Z131+ samples, or something. Dora On 3/7/2012 3:48 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt wrote: > > And there remains two mysteries concerning the 1000 Genomes suggested I1 tree: > > 1) They gave no hint in their tree of what has turned out to be a very large Z58- Z63- division of I1xL22 found from FTDNA testing. > > 2) They claim seeing 3 of their 15 dna samples used for the I1 portion of the tree to be Z131+ But so far the extensive testing at FTDNA has not found a single I1 with Z131- ? > > I recommend asking Dr Krahn at FTDNA to add snp DF29 to the catalog. > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Childers is a modal or "normal" 7e. And as you point out, with such a huge family of paticipants, they can share the cost for modest per individual amounts. ****************** Thank you--that's exactly what I need, because I think/hope a recommendation coming straight from you will carry more weight. Although it shouldn't be hard to convince a group of 50 or so to make a very small contribution, one never knows how people will react. I was not able to persuade anyone in this family to upgrade to 111 markers. The problem was I couldn't promise that the results would be genealogically significant and the cost of an upgrade is now $129. I hope that at $15-20 each, I'll have better luck convincing them of the potential value of WTY. Lindsey

Unfortunately I meant to say Z131+ as the last word in first from last sentence of my message below. From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:48 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Early Days of I1: DF29 needed A very large fraction of the I1xL22 generics and even several well established clades of I1xL22 are turning out Z58- Z63- Z131- And the elapsed times between founding of all I1, the branch off of I1d L22+ and the divisions of I1xL22 into its z series snps - defined subhaplogroups are rather short (centuries) as estimated by various interclade age estimates. And these various interclade age estimates carry statistical uncertainties too large for us to infer from them some of the time orderings of the earliest nodes in the I1 tree. 1000 Genomes says they found a snp DF29 which happened in this key early era of I1; its use could very well help us sort out the orderings in those earliest years of the I1 tree. But so far FTDNA has not chosen to add DF29 to their catalog. I have suggested they do some a few times; but perhaps requests from the many of you who have turned out both Z58- and Z63- to add DF29 to their catalog offerings of snps might help get the ball rolling? 1000 Genomes also suggests that Z58 and Z63 are downstream from DF29. The Z58- Z63- folks could very well divide into those derived and those ancestral for DF29. And we still do not know if I1d L22+ will turn out DF29 derived or ancestral, although 1000 Genomes suggests derived. And there remains two mysteries concerning the 1000 Genomes suggested I1 tree: 1) They gave no hint in their tree of what has turned out to be a very large Z58- Z63- division of I1xL22 found from FTDNA testing. 2) They claim seeing 3 of their 15 dna samples used for the I1 portion of the tree to be Z131+ But so far the extensive testing at FTDNA has not found a single I1 with Z131- [[Z131+ was meant here]] ? I recommend asking Dr Krahn at FTDNA to add snp DF29 to the catalog. Ken

A very large fraction of the I1xL22 generics and even several well established clades of I1xL22 are turning out Z58- Z63- Z131- And the elapsed times between founding of all I1, the branch off of I1d L22+ and the divisions of I1xL22 into its z series snps - defined subhaplogroups are rather short (centuries) as estimated by various interclade age estimates. And these various interclade age estimates carry statistical uncertainties too large for us to infer from them some of the time orderings of the earliest nodes in the I1 tree. 1000 Genomes says they found a snp DF29 which happened in this key early era of I1; its use could very well help us sort out the orderings in those earliest years of the I1 tree. But so far FTDNA has not chosen to add DF29 to their catalog. I have suggested they do some a few times; but perhaps requests from the many of you who have turned out both Z58- and Z63- to add DF29 to their catalog offerings of snps might help get the ball rolling? 1000 Genomes also suggests that Z58 and Z63 are downstream from DF29. The Z58- Z63- folks could very well divide into those derived and those ancestral for DF29. And we still do not know if I1d L22+ will turn out DF29 derived or ancestral, although 1000 Genomes suggests derived. And there remains two mysteries concerning the 1000 Genomes suggested I1 tree: 1) They gave no hint in their tree of what has turned out to be a very large Z58- Z63- division of I1xL22 found from FTDNA testing. 2) They claim seeing 3 of their 15 dna samples used for the I1 portion of the tree to be Z131+ But so far the extensive testing at FTDNA has not found a single I1 with Z131- ? I recommend asking Dr Krahn at FTDNA to add snp DF29 to the catalog. Ken

Does anyone know the number of Y-chromosome bases sequenced by the 1000- genomes project versus the number being sequenced by the expanded WTY program at FTDNA? My impression was that a majority of the Y was sequenced by "1000-genomes", which presumably would account for their great success in finding new SNPs. By contrast, the last time I heard. WTY was only sequencing around 200,000 to 300,000 bases on the Y, so I've got to think their chances of finding new SNPs are much less than those of the 1000-genomes project, although it is true that WTY has managed to find even some fairly private SNPs. If 1000-genomes could be persuaded to take some additional samples, such as those selected by Julie and Aaron for maximum STR differences within their I1>Z63+ project, the chances of finding a new SNP would seem to be much greater than depending on WTY to find these new SNPs. ************************************** How does one persuade 1000 Genomes to take samples? If there is any group which needs to find new SNP's, it is the large group negative for Z58, Z63, and Z 131. Lindsey

Now that Dr Krahn has been able to cover so many more sites in his WTY, coupled with the apparent deep time separation of 7e from other branches of Z58- Z63- Z131-, yet the young age of 7e MRCA, you have a decent chance of finding a snp for 7e. I'd pick the most "normal" or central 7e haplotype that you can if you proceed with this WTY. Good luck, Ken ************************************ Thank you--that's encouraging--please correct me if I am wrong, but I take most normal to mean closest to your modal which would be Childers or another member of the set within AS7E which appears to be related to Childers within genealogical time. If Childers is the best candidate, I might be able to persuade the family to pay to test one member since there are probably at least 50 men who have already been tested. If all contribute, the individual cost would be negligible and the payoff, if we find something, enormous. Lindsey

Lindsey, I don't know the answer to that. Maybe Greg Magoon could enlighten us about this. Maybe they are not taking new samples. Obed On 3/7/2012 12:49 PM, Lplantagenet wrote: > ************************************** > > How does one persuade 1000 Genomes to take samples? If there is any group which needs to find new SNP's, it is the large group negative for Z58, Z63, and Z 131. > > Lindsey > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

List, This list is dedicated to I haplogroup , an early group in Europe. I would like to enlarge the picture and I would like to consider an approach of the early stages, those that eventually ended in the IJK then [IJ] and I haplogroups : M89 (F) → M523 → M429 → M170 . Mount Toba is a volcano that went into eruption 73000 years ago (+/- 3000) . I know that very early stages are now in discussion but my point is that the very migratory process is to be considered near the Toba's eruption date as it might have been influenced by this cataclysm. Link 1 is a map with mount Toba, north of Sumatra island, indicated by a black spot, the blue circle depicting a wide area where the effect of the eruption was probably too strong for a survival. http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/Oppenheimer-toba.jpg Let's first remind the top of the trees both for Y DNA and for mtDNA : http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/Capture-arbreY-mod.JPG http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/Capture-arbre-mtDNA.JPG We want to consider first the groups at the stage : [DE] and [CF] for Y DNA , M / N for mtDNA. [DE] went up to Japan. Of course, present day « [DE] » only mean that a SNP is still to be found but I take it as a strong indication that [DE] was still in an early stage when it reached Japan. Some [DE] probably stayed near the « departure point » somewhere near the persic gulf and E haplogroup (M96) evolved from there while , in Asia {DE] evolved in D (M174). [CF] was probably earlier than [DE] on the way to Asia, on the same coastal path but they might have settle near the persic gulf and only a subgroup , haplogroup C, went on towards Australia. Following the eruption and the heavy cloud of dust there might have been a short ice age and low sea levels allowing C to reach Australia. At the same time this group started moving north and there are evidences for a colonization from south (Australia) to north (Mongolia). So, what Mount Toba eruption prompted was first a cut in the main path along the coast. Expansion started over from multiple points of survey. MtDNA M is mainly along the southern route like [DE] , while N is both in Australia and also in all directions followed by F subgroups ; N mtDNA seems to follow [CF] expansion. Here is a link to the F fate : http://sd-4.archive-host.com/membres/images/90261920431217746/northern-tree.jpg I didn't draw it myself and I don't know who did ; I found it on the web. This drawing is fine, except for « R1a » and « R1b » : change it for P at the same place Q is indicated. Now, we are getting closer. Somehow, the Mount Toba eruption forced people to adapt to inland and stop exploring all coasts. As mentioned above [KIJ] is one of the main split of F and it split again in K going mainly east and [IJ] in the west. Again, just like for [DE] the interpretation is that the few [KIJ] going east evolved in K while those going west evolved in [IJ] and the parental lineages were lost. [IJ] might have been around for quite a while. Neanderthal men were still very active 50000 years ago when this group probably tried to push north ; the corresponding mtDNA N subgroup being U possibly already U5 . My question to this list would be : how old can be [IJ] ? Can it fit with the earliest modern man in Europe, say around 50 000 years ago ? Didier

Childers is a modal or "normal" 7e. And as you point out, with such a huge family of paticipants, they can share the cost for modest per individual amounts. -----Original Message----- From: Lplantagenet Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:46 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] •Re: Question about WTY Now that Dr Krahn has been able to cover so many more sites in his WTY, coupled with the apparent deep time separation of 7e from other branches of Z58- Z63- Z131-, yet the young age of 7e MRCA, you have a decent chance of finding a snp for 7e. I'd pick the most "normal" or central 7e haplotype that you can if you proceed with this WTY. Good luck, Ken ************************************ Thank you--that's encouraging--please correct me if I am wrong, but I take most normal to mean closest to your modal which would be Childers or another member of the set within AS7E which appears to be related to Childers within genealogical time. If Childers is the best candidate, I might be able to persuade the family to pay to test one member since there are probably at least 50 men who have already been tested. If all contribute, the individual cost would be negligible and the payoff, if we find something, enormous. Lindsey ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does anyone know the number of Y-chromosome bases sequenced by the 1000- genomes project versus the number being sequenced by the expanded WTY program at FTDNA? My impression was that a majority of the Y was sequenced by "1000-genomes", which presumably would account for their great success in finding new SNPs. By contrast, the last time I heard. WTY was only sequencing around 200,000 to 300,000 bases on the Y, so I've got to think their chances of finding new SNPs are much less than those of the 1000-genomes project, although it is true that WTY has managed to find even some fairly private SNPs. If 1000-genomes could be persuaded to take some additional samples, such as those selected by Julie and Aaron for maximum STR differences within their I1>Z63+ project, the chances of finding a new SNP would seem to be much greater than depending on WTY to find these new SNPs.

Ken, I've given my recommendations for SNP testing for Dinarics: "None", if you have different recommendations please let me know before I email them. bernie

As one of the volunteer administrators of the FTDNA I2a Project (I-P37.2) I often get questions from "Dinarics" asking about SNP testing and their place in the Haplogroup I tree. Below is my response earlier today to one of our members, I'm sending it to this mailing list and I will probably send a similar message to all of our Dinaric members too. Bernie Cullen What SNP tests have you done? None. FTDNA has only predicted you to be P37.2+ which is I2a according to their tree. That is the most specific prediction that they will make, even though it is obvious that you are I2a2. What SNP tests should you do? None, according to Bill Morrow and me, because your 25 markers match the Dinaric modal very well and all Dinarics have tested exactly the same way on all known SNPs. (except see note below about P41.2). What SNP tests could you do if you wanted certainty? M423, you will be M423+ like Dinarics and Disles and Isles, and your official haplogroup designation at FTDNA will be changed to a green I2a2. L69, you will be L69+ like Dinarics and Disles but Isles are L69-. This SNP is not part of the FTDNA tree and will never be part of the tree, and your official FTDNA haplogroup designation will not change based on your L69 result. L621, you will be L621+ like Dinarics and Disles but Isles are L621-. This SNP is not part of the FTDNA tree and your official FTDNA haplogroup designation will not change right now based on your L69 result. But probably it will be added to the tree later this year or next. L147, you will be L147+ like Dinarics but Disles and Isles are L147-. This SNP is not part of the FTDNA tree and will never be part of the tree, and your official FTDNA haplogroup designation will not change based on your L147 result. P41.2, you will very likely be P41.2- like all Dinarics in our project and all known I2a people at Family Tree DNA. Scientific papers have reported that about 1% of M423+ people in Bosnia and Croatia are P41.2+ but P41.2+ has not been found in other countries. There is a very small chance you could be P41.2+. Should you order a Deep Clade test or individual SNP tests? Probably individual SNP tests. A Deep Clade test cost $89 and you will very likely receive P37.2+ M423+ P41.2- results. Individual SNP tests cost $29 each plus a one time $9.50 charge for your first individual SNP order. There are multiple versions of the L147 test and you should order the L147.2 version. How do you order the tests? Login to your FTDNA personal page with your kit number and password.Click "Order an Upgrade" at the upper right. For a Deep Clade Test, click "Order Deep Clade Test" For individual SNPs, click "Order Advanced Test" (NOT Order Advanced SNP Test). In the Test Type box, choose SNP. In the marker box, type the test you want to order and click Find. Click Add and the page will refresh and you will see the test in your cart. Click Next at the lower right to give payment information. Finally, should you be called I2a or I2a2 or I2a2a or I2a1b or something else? At the Family Tree DNA project, Bill Morrow and I have been calling all Dinarics and Disles I2a2a and all Isles people I2a2b. Officially Family Tree DNA calls Dinarics and Disles I2a2 and Isles people I2a2b, or they call someone just I2a if he has not done SNP testing. Other sources, like haplgroup I expert Ken Nordvedt and www.isogg.org have rearranged the entire I2 tree and call Dinarics I2a1b1a or I2a1b3. (The difference between Ken and ISOGG comes from whether P41.2 and L147 are included in the tree). Our project probably will keep calling Dinarics I2a2a until one of two things happens: FTDNA updates its tree or new discoveries are made that clarify the relationship between the five known branches of P37.2 (which are M26, M423, L233 and "Alpine", L880, and P37.2*-"France") Bernie