I'm AS3 458=14, 447=24, 449=30, and 464= 12 16 17 17 instead of 12 15 16 16   Would I be of assistance if I ordered the Z382 test?  I've ordered nothing beyond my 37 markers but a match has done through 67 so I'm riding on his coat tails.   Rich Edwards kit 117199 ________________________________ From: Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:37 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Z382 -----Original Message----- From: Terry I've been looking at Z382 and the other SNPs for haplogroup I1. In the FTDNA I1 Project, there are still only five people that have taken the Z382 test (as of 12 March 2012). Two of them were Z382+ (positive), with one listed under the heading "AS 3 (Z59+, Z58+)", while the other Z382+ person is listed under "Z59+ (Z58+, Z59+, but not AS 3 or AS 13)". Now, whatever the definition is of your "robust clade AS3", I can't see why on the basis of those results you can say much about Z382+ and any association with STR values at this stage. [[Two of two from AS3 clade are L382+.  There are no other Z382+ yet from outside of AS3, though I expect there will eventually be.  The I1xL22 generics are showing up on all the new branch lines defined by the z snps, as they probably should in a rapidly expanding population.  Others do the FTDNA Project classifying, not me.  Robust clade means large count of members. My database has 156 haplotypes for clade AS3, and I have not updated my searches in quite a while.  For those who think they are in AS3 based on first 67 markers, the 68-111 markers give four more special STR values --- 461 = 11, 441 = 15, 714 = 25, 715 = 25.  In the first 67 markers the identifying marker values are 458 = 14, 447 = 24, 449 = 30, and 464 = 12,15,16,16.  But AS3 seems older than most I1xL22 clades so has significant variance (mutations) in its haplotype population. KN]] ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Your haplotype looks like it is in another cluster someone called AS14. So far Z139 and Z138 have shown phyloequivalent, but I can't say a large number have tested both. It is probably good idea to test both to see if this cluster possibly splits those two new snps. -----Original Message----- From: Belinda Jacks Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:47 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] direction again please Ken etal, Can you help me once again decipher all this data. Nelson kit 146456 is positive for z 139. He has not tested for Z138. Do I need to do that? . I looked at the numbers for I1-ESc-13 He doesn't fit exactly. Can someone tell me what to test next and where Nelson fits in all this. I struggle with understanding this but it is fascinating. Belinda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken etal, Can you help me once again decipher all this data. Nelson kit 146456 is positive for z 139. He has not tested for Z138. Do I need to do that? . I looked at the numbers for I1-ESc-13 He doesn't fit exactly. Can someone tell me what to test next and where Nelson fits in all this. I struggle with understanding this but it is fascinating. Belinda

But being in a cluster of Continental 1 with odd DYS464 and the high DYS458 value you might consider doing L801 just to make sure? -----Original Message----- From: Weldon Smith Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 4:01 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L801 query for Ken Ken, Is there any finding yet about which of your founderhaps M223 continental modals are included within the new L801 clade? As a mainstream (39/41 markers) continental1 modal, is the L801 test a good value or can L801+ be reasonably inferred? I no longer see your FounderHaps spreadsheets on your site. I found them of good value. Will they reappear someday? Thx. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

L801+ has become a huge subhaplogroup of M223 It consists of the bulk of M223 Continental1&2 under previous classifications. It is the "young" part of Continental1&2. But a variety of "old" Continental is found to be L801- and part of that being L623+ It can be inferred you are L801+ with pretty good confidence. One of these days I will put up another founderhaps file. Ken -----Original Message----- From: Weldon Smith Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 4:01 PM To: Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] L801 query for Ken Ken, Is there any finding yet about which of your founderhaps M223 continental modals are included within the new L801 clade? As a mainstream (39/41 markers) continental1 modal, is the L801 test a good value or can L801+ be reasonably inferred? I no longer see your FounderHaps spreadsheets on your site. I found them of good value. Will they reappear someday? Thx. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

"unsubscribe"   ________________________________ John Lloyd Scharf 4153 Fisher Road, Apt.82 Salem, Oregon 97305-4417   ________________________________ From: Wilfred Husted <wmhusted@hotmail.com> To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 9:32 AM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Any bites? Hello Bernie Cullen, Have you been able to get any of those Z106+ hispanic guys to test the other Z series SNPs? Wil ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I’m beginning to sense that Scot malehood wants to suppress evidence of continental I1 infiltration of their mainly R1b...... ydna pool. Before the PC police pounce on me --- that was a joke --- I have sufficient Scot blood (probably now more than I thought last month) to be able to make jokes about Scotland. After contacting quite a few probable or potential members of a new clade I1-ESc-13 of strong Scot flavor, I note that none have responded with new STR or SNP testing orders. Below I give the STR characteristics of this clade. I have over 40 possible, probable, or confirmed haplotypes gathered. With regard to SNPs, five hard core members already are confirmed Z138+ Z139+ Markers 1-37 DYS385 = 13/15 DYS449 = 30 DYS464 = 12,14,14,16 DYS456 = 15 Markers 38-67 Important identifier DYS487 = 13 Markers 68-111 DYS710 = 31 DYS552 = 26 DYS635 = 20 DYS497 = 15 As you can see, some of the key identifiers are in the 67 or 111 marker extension of the haplotype. Remember: STRs mutate. Some of these STR values listed above do not hold for this or that bonified clade member, especially among the faster mutating markers. I believe FTDNA will sell DYS487 as a singleton STR, however, for modest price.

Well, I had to ask! I'm not sure that I'm up to understanding these arcane things but thanks for sending the sources. I'll study them and see if I can make some sense of them. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 3:12 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Need to make sense of discussion of Here they are. http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/hs_chrY/ http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root -----Original Message----- From: Wilfred Husted Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:52 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Need to make sense of discussion of Ken, Where doth one find the download site? I had no luck Googling for it. Wil

http://ymap.ftdna.com/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse/hs_chrY/ http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root Here they are. -----Original Message----- From: Wilfred Husted Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:52 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Need to make sense of discussion of Ken, Where doth one find the download site? I had no luck Googling for it. Wil -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:38 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Need to make sense of discussion of You should download and use the website tools Dr Krahn has set up to keep track of snps. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken, Is there any finding yet about which of your founderhaps M223 continental modals are included within the new L801 clade? As a mainstream (39/41 markers) continental1 modal, is the L801 test a good value or can L801+ be reasonably inferred? I no longer see your FounderHaps spreadsheets on your site. I found them of good value. Will they reappear someday? Thx.

Ken, Where doth one find the download site? I had no luck Googling for it. Wil -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:38 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Need to make sense of discussion of You should download and use the website tools Dr Krahn has set up to keep track of snps.

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/09/why_most_publis.html This link ought to clear your hangover. And remember this next time you are tempted to quote a research finding on ancient dna.

You should download and use the website tools Dr Krahn has set up to keep track of snps. L186 and L187 seem to be phyloequivalent to M170 for all haplogroup I. Things would only be interesting if your dna of interest were ancestral for one of them but not the other. -----Original Message----- From: Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:38 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Need to make sense of discussion of I need to make sense of this discussion, found in the list archives by Google. The reason why is that my brother's clone's Walk the Y has L186+ del +, L187 T+, in red, in the excel spreadsheet. The 3rd SNP referred to below cannot be found but I suspect it's a mistype for 17586788 (rs9786391, for which my brother's clone is G+ in red letters, which I don't think means ancestral. It is not clear to me what that means, because you all keep using the terms ancestral and derived instead of plain old a mutation is there or it isn't. This discussion is dated 2009, and so is my brother's clone's Walk the Y. Yours, Dora Smith ---------------------- /From:/ "O. W. Odom" <owodom@mail.utexas.edu <mailto:owodom@mail.utexas.edu>> /Subject:/ Re: [yDNAhgI] L186/L187 is not a private SNP /Date:/ Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:13:42 -0500 /References:/ <6.0.1.1.2.20090910135702.037dcea8@mail.utexas.edu><003a01ca324a$b450e6d0$6400a8c0@Ken1><004501ca324b$3b331560$6400a8c0@Ken1> /In-Reply-To:/ <004501ca324b$3b331560$6400a8c0@Ken1> Ken, Yes, the new I1* does seem to be ancestral (T-), like me, at ChrY position 17586799, wile the reference NA07022 is, according to Thomas, C+ at that location. Obed At 02:16 PM 9/10/2009, Ken wrote: >I hope someone is encouraging Krahn to now get these snps into the catalog, >along with that one which is derived for the I1 full sequence reference. >Oh, that raises the question: is this new I1 person with L186+ and L187+ >ancestral like you for that snp in the I1 reference sequence? Then it also >deserves to go into the catalog. > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net <mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net>> >To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com <mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>> >Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 1:12 PM >Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L186/L187 is not a private SNP > > > > That is very encouraging. We all await the haplotype identification for > > this other L186+, L187+ > > The I1-AS famine and drought has been too long. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "O. W. Odom" <owodom@mail.utexas.edu <mailto:owodom@mail.utexas.edu>> > > To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com <mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 1:06 PM > > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L186/L187 is not a private SNP > > > > > >> > >> > >> I just noticed at the finch2 site that my L186/L187 SNP(s) is (are) now > >> shared by another I1* WTY participant. I will leave it to the > >> participant > >> to give more details. > >> > >> Obed ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Bernie Cullen, Have you been able to get any of those Z106+ hispanic guys to test the other Z series SNPs? Wil

I have 111-markers from FTDNA and am I1 M253 L22-. I have Z58 and D29 on order. Kit 80366, John M Rhodes On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:08 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > I want to thank the five people who seem to be generic, are either Z58-, > Z63-, and Z131- or Z58- and Z63-, and who have ordered DF29 tests. > > With the new upstream snp DF29 added to FTDNA catalog, one big goal is to > see if there is I1 life before DF29. Or does DF29 turn out phyloequivalent > to M253 now that Z131 is effectively out of the picture for the indefinite > future. > > On this same issue, it is important that all established clades found Z58- > Z63- and Z131- have a representative testing DF29. I think all are covered > except maybe the robust AS4 clade and the M227+ subhaplogroup? > > Can someone from these groups do the DF29 test? Or maybe I have missed > some orders which fall outside of the Projects I can monitor? > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

KEN: I want to thank the five people who seem to be generic, are either Z58-, Z63-, and Z131- or Z58- and Z63-, and who have ordered DF29 tests. Lindsey: Thank you for all the time and effort you put into directing this research. It's exciting to be part of the project. Do you want a second AS7E order for DF 29? Kit #21268 said on Friday he would order this week.

A second 7e can only help, but it does not have the urgency of getting a first representative from some unrepresented clade. -----Original Message----- From: Lplantagenet Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 6:50 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Does I1xL22 have life before DF29? KEN: I want to thank the five people who seem to be generic, are either Z58-, Z63-, and Z131- or Z58- and Z63-, and who have ordered DF29 tests. Lindsey: Thank you for all the time and effort you put into directing this research. It's exciting to be part of the project. Do you want a second AS7E order for DF 29? Kit #21268 said on Friday he would order this week. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Other than avoiding the one with 14 14 15 15 at 464, I think any other of the bunch would be fine. -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Haggerty Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:00 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Does I1xL22 have life before DF29? I can arrange to have one of the Merediths who is AS4 http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~merideth/surnameproject.htm (see the yellow section) do DF29--does it make any difference which one it should be? Sharon Haggerty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:08 PM Subject: [yDNAhgI] Does I1xL22 have life before DF29? >I want to thank the five people who seem to be generic, are either Z58-, >Z63-, and Z131- or Z58- and Z63-, and who have ordered DF29 tests. > > With the new upstream snp DF29 added to FTDNA catalog, one big goal is to > see if there is I1 life before DF29. Or does DF29 turn out > phyloequivalent to M253 now that Z131 is effectively out of the picture > for the indefinite future. > > On this same issue, it is important that all established clades found Z58- > Z63- and Z131- have a representative testing DF29. I think all are > covered except maybe the robust AS4 clade and the M227+ subhaplogroup? > > Can someone from these groups do the DF29 test? Or maybe I have missed > some orders which fall outside of the Projects I can monitor? > > Ken > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I need to make sense of this discussion, found in the list archives by Google. The reason why is that my brother's clone's Walk the Y has L186+ del +, L187 T+, in red, in the excel spreadsheet. The 3rd SNP referred to below cannot be found but I suspect it's a mistype for 17586788 (rs9786391, for which my brother's clone is G+ in red letters, which I don't think means ancestral. It is not clear to me what that means, because you all keep using the terms ancestral and derived instead of plain old a mutation is there or it isn't. This discussion is dated 2009, and so is my brother's clone's Walk the Y. Yours, Dora Smith ---------------------- /From:/ "O. W. Odom" <owodom@mail.utexas.edu <mailto:owodom@mail.utexas.edu>> /Subject:/ Re: [yDNAhgI] L186/L187 is not a private SNP /Date:/ Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:13:42 -0500 /References:/ <6.0.1.1.2.20090910135702.037dcea8@mail.utexas.edu><003a01ca324a$b450e6d0$6400a8c0@Ken1><004501ca324b$3b331560$6400a8c0@Ken1> /In-Reply-To:/ <004501ca324b$3b331560$6400a8c0@Ken1> Ken, Yes, the new I1* does seem to be ancestral (T-), like me, at ChrY position 17586799, wile the reference NA07022 is, according to Thomas, C+ at that location. Obed At 02:16 PM 9/10/2009, Ken wrote: >I hope someone is encouraging Krahn to now get these snps into the catalog, >along with that one which is derived for the I1 full sequence reference. >Oh, that raises the question: is this new I1 person with L186+ and L187+ >ancestral like you for that snp in the I1 reference sequence? Then it also >deserves to go into the catalog. > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <knordtvedt@bresnan.net <mailto:knordtvedt@bresnan.net>> >To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com <mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>> >Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 1:12 PM >Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] L186/L187 is not a private SNP > > > > That is very encouraging. We all await the haplotype identification for > > this other L186+, L187+ > > The I1-AS famine and drought has been too long. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "O. W. Odom" <owodom@mail.utexas.edu <mailto:owodom@mail.utexas.edu>> > > To: <y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com <mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 1:06 PM > > Subject: [yDNAhgI] L186/L187 is not a private SNP > > > > > >> > >> > >> I just noticed at the finch2 site that my L186/L187 SNP(s) is (are) now > >> shared by another I1* WTY participant. I will leave it to the > >> participant > >> to give more details. > >> > >> Obed

OK, get ready for this. My brother and his clone are definitely related. Because not telling me they had done it would be typical of either of them. I looked through my Gower project, which I administer, to see if my brother's mystery clone, who's a Gower and not a Smith, ordered DF29 and I don't know it, which could happen several ways. Sometimes he orders things and never tells me, and sometimes I never see my e-mail. He doesn't appear to have ordered DF29, but he does appear to have ordered and have results for Walk the Y. Now, this is interesting. But I've no idea how to read the results. I'm looking basically at a bunch of folders with sub folders. Could someone please help me with it? My brother and his clone are Anglo-Saxon generic, pretty much modal at 25 markers. They are negative for Z58, Z138, and Z63, and for Z131, of course. Yours, Dora