Thanks, Ken. Does that mean that I should order Z138 and Z139? Sorry, I am not very experienced with SNP orders. Thank you for your expertise and time, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com mx27e looks like an AS2 haplotype and should be Z138+ Z139+ - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt Hi, Y-search ID MX27E is a new I1. (23andMe says I1*) I plan on SNP testing as soon as I can get a recommendation. Can someone look at it and suggest what would be the best SNP(s) to test? This is the first participant of my new Stoalabarger DNA Project (my 3rd cousin once removed). The Stoalabargers are supposed to be from Germany and I was hoping to get some hints as to the origins of their surname, but there don't appear to be any relevant matches yet. I just joined the I1 Project. Thanks, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com

I, like many others I assume, are very appreciative of everyone's varying talents and contributions. I am closing down the commentary on this subject. If you have something relevant to DNA to add, then feel free. Otherwise, I am asking that you not post, particularly if it is just an opinion, or "your two cents." Aaron, List Admin

I have mentioned I1b (M227): in my database I have 3 Byelorussians/Lithuanians, two French and one Italian, ie. 50/50. I am not sure about T2, but there are also some Spanish, Italians and French, quite many British and Germans. In general I think T2 is dissipated over entire Europe. I don't know how many Scandinavians are in T2, but I have impression that not many. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? You forgot M227 which has a definite eastern tendency. The only part of I1 comparably eastern oriented is T2 - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 6:15 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? This goes in the direction mentioned by Juergen Fritsche few days ago. But take a look on all the subclades Z58- Z63- in your I1 tree: AS4 - Welsh ML - in my database mixed continental Europeans P1 - Poles P2 - dominated by Brits I1b - mixed Eastern and Western Europeans 1212 - don't know AS7E - English Three of the above seven clades are British (beside, I am not sure about ML and 1212). I1 people in the England and Wales are traditionally classified as descendants of Angles (from Southern Jutland), Saxons, Frisians, Juts, and Normans of Normandy (mixed). -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 4:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? I do not see enough data yet to pick a location. Main hint of evidence is from looking at Z58- Z63- Z131- haplotypes --- both clades and individual generics. They most all show a tendency to have higher frequencies of more easterly places of origin than rest of I1. The Welsh AS4 is a very interesting exception. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Do you mean the MRCAs lived Mecklemburgia, Brandenburgia or Western Pomerania (Vorpommern)? What are the hints? This is very interesting. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Is it possible the MRCA for I1 lived more easterly in the north German plain than its present center of gravity? I think there are hints to that effect. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4890 - Release Date: 03/23/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4891 - Release Date: 03/24/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4892 - Release Date: 03/24/12

I do not see enough data yet to pick a location. Main hint of evidence is from looking at Z58- Z63- Z131- haplotypes --- both clades and individual generics. They most all show a tendency to have higher frequencies of more easterly places of origin than rest of I1. The Welsh AS4 is a very interesting exception. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Do you mean the MRCAs lived Mecklemburgia, Brandenburgia or Western Pomerania (Vorpommern)? What are the hints? This is very interesting. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Is it possible the MRCA for I1 lived more easterly in the north German plain than its present center of gravity? I think there are hints to that effect. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4890 - Release Date: 03/23/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Stollberger? http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/stollberger.html There is the city of Stollberg in the Upper Saxony. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jim Owston Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:33 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? CeCe: If you can identify the I1 subclade through Cullen's subclade predictor, some recommendations could be made. Jim Jim Owston James M. Owston, EdD Dean of Distance Learning Associate Professor: Communication & Media Mountain State University PO Box 9003 Beckley, WV 25802-9003 304.929.1356 800.766.6167, ext. 1356 ________________________________________ From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CeCe Moore [cecemoore@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:13 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? Hi, Y-search ID MX27E is a new I1. (23andMe says I1*) I plan on SNP testing as soon as I can get a recommendation. Can someone look at it and suggest what would be the best SNP(s) to test? This is the first participant of my new Stoalabarger DNA Project (my 3rd cousin once removed). The Stoalabargers are supposed to be from Germany and I was hoping to get some hints as to the origins of their surname, but there don't appear to be any relevant matches yet. I just joined the I1 Project. Thanks, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4892 - Release Date: 03/24/12

I hope someone with the skill to do it will make a new database, including the 68-111 markers. Ybase was what prompted FTDNA to make ysearch. A new database would surely fasten the change at FTDNA. > > I suspect FTDNA now wants people tested elsewhere to transfer in their > results: > > http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/FAQs.html#transfer > > instead of uploading to Ysearch, so I'd be surprised if Ysearch is > ever updated. > > I, for one, am glad to be able to encourage people to transfer in. > It's makes including their results easier for us FTDNA project admins, > and the clients are better off in the long run, IMO. > > Diana > > > > From: Bill Hawk > > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 2:28 PM > > > > How hard can it be to bump Ysearch up to 111? It > > is already 100, isn't it? I would also be good to > > fix the printable certificate PDF's to include > > 111. Any word when that will be done, FTDNA people? > > Bill Hawk >

This goes in the direction mentioned by Juergen Fritsche few days ago. But take a look on all the subclades Z58- Z63- in your I1 tree: AS4 - Welsh ML - in my database mixed continental Europeans P1 - Poles P2 - dominated by Brits I1b - mixed Eastern and Western Europeans 1212 - don't know AS7E - English Three of the above seven clades are British (beside, I am not sure about ML and 1212). I1 people in the England and Wales are traditionally classified as descendants of Angles (from Southern Jutland), Saxons, Frisians, Juts, and Normans of Normandy (mixed). -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 4:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? I do not see enough data yet to pick a location. Main hint of evidence is from looking at Z58- Z63- Z131- haplotypes --- both clades and individual generics. They most all show a tendency to have higher frequencies of more easterly places of origin than rest of I1. The Welsh AS4 is a very interesting exception. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Do you mean the MRCAs lived Mecklemburgia, Brandenburgia or Western Pomerania (Vorpommern)? What are the hints? This is very interesting. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Is it possible the MRCA for I1 lived more easterly in the north German plain than its present center of gravity? I think there are hints to that effect. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4890 - Release Date: 03/23/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4891 - Release Date: 03/24/12

Hi, Y-search ID MX27E is a new I1. (23andMe says I1*) I plan on SNP testing as soon as I can get a recommendation. Can someone look at it and suggest what would be the best SNP(s) to test? This is the first participant of my new Stoalabarger DNA Project (my 3rd cousin once removed). The Stoalabargers are supposed to be from Germany and I was hoping to get some hints as to the origins of their surname, but there don't appear to be any relevant matches yet. I just joined the I1 Project. Thanks, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com

Do you mean the MRCAs lived Mecklemburgia, Brandenburgia or Western Pomerania (Vorpommern)? What are the hints? This is very interesting. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Is it possible the MRCA for I1 lived more easterly in the north German plain than its present center of gravity? I think there are hints to that effect. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4890 - Release Date: 03/23/12

There are two L211+, but they share their surname, so it's presumably still a private SNP: http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/SNP-maxout-HgI1.html#L211 Diana > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:13 PM > > As far as I know only a single L211+ has been found. >

I agree that the Y-DNA SNP haplotrees at FTDNA, ISOGG, and elsewhere are logical cladograms, though I don't know that I would say — or that FTDNA or ISOGG would say — they are "just" logical phylotrees, not considering the resources invested in building them. A time-axis is implied in all evolutionary cladograms, and it isn't necessary to scale the time axis — by scaling the lengths of the branches — unless the time scale is of interest to the researcher. Sometimes it's the sequence (the correct order of branching) that is a researcher's main interest. Both scaled and non-scaled haplotrees are valuable tools. Diana > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 2:55 PM > > The trees seen at FTDNA, other companies, and ISOGG are just logical > phylotrees based on snps. They indicate the logical time ordering > (greater than, less than, connectivities, etc.) of the shown nodes > of the tree along with the necessity of shown nodes based on seeing > haplotypes with various combinations of snps in derived or ancestral > state. These kind of trees indicate no metric or measure of time > back to the various nodes. <snip>

Z186 is already pending for the RASEY (Batch 454, results expected 4/23). Diana > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 3:04 PM > > As we pile up more and more Z186+ looking more and more like almost > phyloequivalent to L801+, a very large chasm in old M223* has shown > up in the 68-111 marker extensions to M223+ haplotypes. > > It suggests where to focus testing on Z186+ to make it a possibly > more interesting snp. > > L801+ Z186+ is almost identical to the DYS532 = 9 young population > from Continental1 and Continental2. There are a few borderline > haplotypes who should be tested for Z186+: > > Rasey, > Macaulay, > Abbot, > Vannoy, > Hausman. > > Their DYS532 values have strayed upward to 10 and 11. But they > keep the DYS717 = 16 and DYS485 = 13 values of the L801+ Z186+ horde > found so far. <snp>

From: Diana Matthiesen Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 1:53 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; knordtvedt@bresnan.net Subject: RE: [yDNAhgI] PhyloTrees and Time A time-axis is implied in all evolutionary cladograms, and it isn't necessary to scale the time axis — by scaling the lengths of the branches — unless the time scale is of interest to the researcher. [[Yes, the time scale and estimated dates of key nodes is of primary interest to this researcher --- that's why my original message to emphasize the distinction between tree types. KN ]]

http://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/figures-hyperbole.htm Lindsey ********************************************************** Ken is hardly "in charge of the I1 division at FTDNA." As far as I know, Dr. Thomas Krahn http://www.familytreedna.com/about.aspx is the one in charge of the haplotree, among other things: http://ytree.ftdna.com/ Ken is one of the co-admins for the Haplogroup I1 project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1/default.aspx No one "owns" any part of this research. It's a cooperative effort. Diana ************************************ Ken is General in charge of the I1 division at FTDNA and the least I can do is serve as one of his Lieutenants to recruit men from my family's AS7E subgroup.... Lindsey

The trees seen at FTDNA, other companies, and ISOGG are just logical phylotrees based on snps. They indicate the logical time ordering (greater than, less than, connectivities, etc.) of the shown nodes of the tree along with the necessity of shown nodes based on seeing haplotypes with various combinations of snps in derived or ancestral state. These kind of trees indicate no metric or measure of time back to the various nodes. My trees linked to below include all the node time ordering logic obtained from snp information available to me, but they use extended STR haplotype information from large collections of haplotypes as well --- for purposes of putting measured time into the trees. From the STR haplotypes measures of “distance” between haplotypes and their clade MRCAs are obtainable. These “distance” measures are typically some kind of variance or GD like calculable quantity. With measured mutation rates for the STRs present in the haplotypes, these measures of distances between haplotypes can be converted into actual time intervals between the nodes, thereby giving the trees not only logical structure but estimated depth back in time to key node events. Others messaging on this or that forum have been constructing trees with a measured time sense using analagous methods. If the nodes are not too dense, the STR-based methods of measuring time between nodes can also infer the logical ordering of the nodes when the snp information is not yet in hand. That was in fact the rule in haplogroup I in the early days before the recent “explosion” in available snps. Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.

- - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Hill Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 12:05 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1 Tree from 1000 Genomes Project I, like many others I assume, are very appreciative of everyone's varying talents and contributions. I am closing down the commentary on this subject. If you have something relevant to DNA to add, then feel free. Otherwise, I am asking that you not post, particularly if it is just an opinion, or "your two cents." Aaron, List Admin ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Where is the present day center of gravity? Where do we now suspect the I1 founder originated? I was under the impression that this was uncertain. Perhaps anywhere from northern Spain to Denmark--Ed

I belong to this forum only because of dr Nordtvedt's contributions and research results. Probably, many others think the same way. His leadership and merits in this research are obvious. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Diana Matthiesen Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 6:56 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com; lplantagenet@aol.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] I1 Tree from 1000 Genomes Project Ken is hardly "in charge of the I1 division at FTDNA." As far as I know, Dr. Thomas Krahn http://www.familytreedna.com/about.aspx is the one in charge of the haplotree, among other things: http://ytree.ftdna.com/ Ken is one of the co-admins for the Haplogroup I1 project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1/default.aspx No one "owns" any part of this research. It's a cooperative effort. Diana ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4891 - Release Date: 03/24/12

-----Original Message----- From: Diana Matthiesen No one "owns" any part of this research. It's a cooperative effort. Diana [[Perhaps "parallel effort" is more accurate than "cooperative"? Don't you think? KN ]] - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.

6 of the 9 STRs mentioned below as tagging the Great Divide in M223+ are purchasable as singletons for a few dollars at FTDNA, including DYS717. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:02 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] M223+ Great Divide The 68-111 markers produce a Great Divide in the M223+ sector of the I-Tree. I touched on this yesterday, but only now explored the full extent of it. It reflects the earliest breakup of the M223+ tree which occurred perhaps 7000 or 8000 years ago and most likely in Central Europe on the middle Danube basin? I will call the two parts of M223+ “A” and “B” Below are STRs which systematically differ on the two sides of the Divide. We might call this the “717 Divide”! A B DYS717 16 19 DYS513 12-13 11 DYS504 14 15+ DYS497 15 14 DYS485 13 14 DYS505 12 11 DYS437 14 15 DYS446 11 10- DYS487 12 13 In Group A are clades: L801+, P95+, L623+ In Group B are clades: M284+, Roots, P78+, M223-X I would put L623+ and M223-X closest to the “borderlands” of this Divide if one had to do so. But the shift of modalities on so many modest mutation rate markers indicates to me a very long interval of intervening tree branch line segments between the Groups. There is something of a geographical split between Group A and Group B I believe, but it is subtle, and I will outline what I see in a later message. So now we have this Z186 snp being tested. Unfortunately most of the orders and close to all of the reported Z186+ results have been for L801+ haplotypes, so we are piling up lots of redundant information. I believe the focus of further Z186 testing should be on the borderlands between Group A and Group B in order to see how this snp falls relative to the divide. This means that L623+ and M223-X haplotypes should be tested, and any L801+ haplotypes which look like haplotype outliers or find their DYS532 value deviating up from the norm of 9 should test for Z186. What we want now is to see if there are any L801- Z186+; the alternative L801+ Z186+ seem now to be much less likely. We can say right now that roughly Z186 will be derived in Group A and ancestral in Group B --- but where is the dividing line for this snp? If one compares the above 9 STRs with their modalities in L38+ haplogroup, nearest neighbor to M223+, eight of the 9 STR modalities in L38+ go with Group B which certainly looks to be the older of A and B.