Very helpful and interesting! Thanks Ken! I will have him do the SNP Z140 a the very least. Phyllis -----Original Message----- Because of your repeat values at DYS393, DYS447, and DYS464d I'd say you are in the 14/22/15 complex, a somewhat ragged group which recently was found to have new snp tags Z58+ Z59+ Z60+ Z140+ The least expensive way to confirm this is to test the most downstream snp Z140.

Hello, I am brand new to this list. My Il Haplogroup husband has tested his Y-DNA with FTDNA for 67 markers, but (I believe) has no meaningful matches within the Il Haplogroup for his surname. Is there someone on this list who could possibly look at his results at Y-Search and weigh in on his results? His Y-Search ID is XJPRN. Thanks for any help! Phyllis

I made the estimate that 68-111 panel has a mutation about every 10 generations. So two people with common ancestor 5 generations back on average would have one. 5 generations is 150 years. So I'd say yes; common ancestor in 1700 suggests 2 mutations among the 68-111 panel. Not 2 every case, just on the average; maybe more maybe less. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: M Robards Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 4:32 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 Markers P109 was Re: A pitch for the 68-111STRmarkers 182783 is not a SPRINGER, at least not on paper as far back as I have been shown. This group of SPRINGERs also have one or two KELL(E)Ys at the 67 marker level. This group of SPRINGERs is tied together by their Y DNA, most of them are out to 67, and I tested a rep from each basic branch for P109 just to make sure they probably all were. There are at least 4 'branches' if you are looking at paper, but none of those 'branches' can be tied together via paper trails, we used the Y DNA to cinch them together. Each group goes back at least to the mid 1700s; one back to about 1700 NJ, one to c1730 NY, one to1760s SC, one at least by 1766 soNY/noNJ. Those are the main sub-groups within this P109 group. Some chance they go back to a Dennis Springer d.CT 1703 m.CT c1667 Mary Hudson. Lots of early Dennis Springers in these groups, plus several Hudson Springers... only no one can prove a paper trail to this couple. Every time I'd get them all upgraded I would hope the results would show some pattern. I did get a few STR patterns to show up within known cousins (3rd in one case). If everyone in this group descends from the Dennis and Mary of CT, then we would all have to be about 8th or 9th cousins (or even 10th?). I don't know if upgrading to 111, even for 2 or 3 of them would show anything for that closely related of a group. If I had the funds I know what I would do, a 68-111 upgrade for each of the ones I did the P109 on, and then a scattering of FF tests, maybe 2 from each of the 4 sub-groups. I'm too old to find a Sugar Daddy. So, with that 'young' of a group, early 1700s, second half of the 1600s at the earliest (IMO), are there any odds for finding additional STRs that would separate them? melissa On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > Melissa, It is not totally clear what you would be looking for with your > extension to 111 markers within such a tight surname cluster. I assume > the > unnamed 182783 is another Springer, but maybe not? P109+ has no > distinquishing clade marker values which make it distinct from basic L22+ > I1-N It is amazing. I think P109+ must have occurred extremely soon > after > the L22+ happened. > > If your Dad upgraded you would get a slightly more accurate representation > of the 68-111 markers for the Springer MRCA. I would expect a difference > or > two among the 68-111. But then you'd probably want a third to break the > 1/1 > deadlocks on the differing values. > > Do you know by paper how young is your Springer cluster? It looks > extremely > young. > > Ken > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are > periodically > updated as new information is obtained. > -----Original Message----- > From: M Robards > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 2:02 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 Markers P109 was Re: A pitch for the 68-111 > STRmarkers > > Ken, I have been putting off upgrading my dad's Y 67 out to 111. I > kept finding other ways to spend the money I already don't have, > mainly FF tests for several of my own family. > > If you could take a look at the Y STR chart for the 'Dennis' group in > the SPRINGER project, we have quite a few participants in this group. > Reason being we were trying to ID family lines, and we did to a small > degree. I have put a matching non-Springer in the chart just so you > can compare, they have gone out to 111 and are also P109. > > There is no FF match between 182783 and the only other 2 in this group > who have done the FF. I'm only mentioning this as a minor detail. > > So do you mean that you are finding sub-clades in I1 by comparing > these 111 upgrades. > > If I were to upgrade my dad 24291 to 111 from 67, with only two in > this group then up to 111, would that show anything? If they don't > match 100% in this panel, or do, I don't see how that would tell me > anything, without getting at least one each from each of the family > groups within this group. There is no way I can upgrade any of the > others in the group, and no one else really shows an interest. And > since 182783's paper trail indicates a different origin, I'm trying to > find the justification to spend the money :( SS only goes so far, but > I feel if I don't do this, no one else will either. I just need > something to push me over the edge. > > melissa springer robards > > On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt > <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > snip >> Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 >> haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I. And then I use >> that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. >> So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your >> information will not go to waste. And it would help if you suggested to >> FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its >> restrictions on purchase. >> >> - - - - >> Kenneth Nordtvedt > snip > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Ken :) On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > I made the estimate that 68-111 panel has a mutation about every 10 > generations.  So two people with common ancestor 5 generations back on > average would have one.  5 generations is 150 years. > > So I'd say yes; common ancestor in 1700 suggests 2 mutations among the > 68-111 panel.  Not 2 every case, just on the average; maybe more maybe less. > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > >

182783 is not a SPRINGER, at least not on paper as far back as I have been shown. This group of SPRINGERs also have one or two KELL(E)Ys at the 67 marker level. This group of SPRINGERs is tied together by their Y DNA, most of them are out to 67, and I tested a rep from each basic branch for P109 just to make sure they probably all were. There are at least 4 'branches' if you are looking at paper, but none of those 'branches' can be tied together via paper trails, we used the Y DNA to cinch them together. Each group goes back at least to the mid 1700s; one back to about 1700 NJ, one to c1730 NY, one to1760s SC, one at least by 1766 soNY/noNJ. Those are the main sub-groups within this P109 group. Some chance they go back to a Dennis Springer d.CT 1703 m.CT c1667 Mary Hudson. Lots of early Dennis Springers in these groups, plus several Hudson Springers... only no one can prove a paper trail to this couple. Every time I'd get them all upgraded I would hope the results would show some pattern. I did get a few STR patterns to show up within known cousins (3rd in one case). If everyone in this group descends from the Dennis and Mary of CT, then we would all have to be about 8th or 9th cousins (or even 10th?). I don't know if upgrading to 111, even for 2 or 3 of them would show anything for that closely related of a group. If I had the funds I know what I would do, a 68-111 upgrade for each of the ones I did the P109 on, and then a scattering of FF tests, maybe 2 from each of the 4 sub-groups. I'm too old to find a Sugar Daddy. So, with that 'young' of a group, early 1700s, second half of the 1600s at the earliest (IMO), are there any odds for finding additional STRs that would separate them? melissa On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > Melissa,  It is not totally clear what you would be looking for with your > extension to 111 markers within such a tight surname cluster.  I assume the > unnamed 182783 is another Springer, but maybe not?  P109+ has no > distinquishing clade marker values which make it distinct from basic L22+ > I1-N  It is amazing.  I think P109+ must have occurred extremely soon after > the L22+ happened. > > If your Dad upgraded you would get a slightly more accurate representation > of the 68-111 markers for the Springer MRCA.  I would expect a difference or > two among the 68-111.  But then you'd probably want a third to break the 1/1 > deadlocks on the differing values. > > Do you know by paper how young is your Springer cluster?  It looks extremely > young. > > Ken > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically > updated as new information is obtained. > -----Original Message----- > From: M Robards > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 2:02 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 Markers P109 was Re: A pitch for the 68-111 > STRmarkers > > Ken, I have been putting off upgrading my dad's Y 67 out to 111.  I > kept finding other ways to spend the money I already don't have, > mainly FF tests for several of my own family. > > If you could take a look at the Y STR chart for the 'Dennis' group in > the SPRINGER project, we have quite a few participants in this group. > Reason being we were trying to ID family lines, and we did to a small > degree.  I have put a matching non-Springer in the chart just so you > can compare, they have gone out to 111 and are also P109. > > There is no FF match between 182783 and the only other 2 in this group > who have done the FF.  I'm only mentioning this as a minor detail. > > So do you mean that you are finding sub-clades in I1 by comparing > these 111 upgrades. > > If I were to upgrade my dad 24291 to 111 from 67, with only two in > this group then up to 111, would that show anything?  If they don't > match 100% in this panel, or do, I don't see how that would tell me > anything, without getting at least one each from each of the family > groups within this group.  There is no way I can upgrade any of the > others in the group, and no one else really shows an interest.  And > since 182783's paper trail indicates a different origin, I'm trying to > find the justification to spend the money :(  SS only goes so far, but > I feel if I don't do this, no one else will either.  I just need > something to push me over the edge. > > melissa springer robards > > On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt > <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: > snip >> Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 >> haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I.  And then I use >> that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. >> So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your >> information will not go to waste.  And it would help if you suggested to >> FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its >> restrictions on purchase. >> >> - - - - >> Kenneth Nordtvedt > snip > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Until such time as we have something akin to full y chromosome snp tests over a clearly defined, fixed, set of nucleotide sites, extended haplotypes with as many STRs as possible provide us with the best clocks for adding the time dimension to the y tree. The 68-111 panel of STRs adds approximately 0.1 to the total mutation rate of haplotype STRs (that roughly means that every 10 generations on average on a line of descent, there will be a mutation within the 68-111 panel, itself). I decided the time has arrived to expand the Generations software to include the 68-111 panel of STRs for doing variance-based tmrca estimates; this should be done in the near future (after income tax forms are done and out of the way). *********************************** I will forward your pitch to my group, along with a few comments of my own. Although all or most AS7E's are interested mainly in genealogy, the fact that our MRCA was relatively recent should make an upgrade more appealing. I keep thinking (or hoping) that if we can just collect more genealogical information on individual families, while refining TMRCA estimates for the group and developing a clearer idea about relationships and distances within the group, that we might eventually reach conclusions of value to all AS7E's. Lindsey

Melissa, It is not totally clear what you would be looking for with your extension to 111 markers within such a tight surname cluster. I assume the unnamed 182783 is another Springer, but maybe not? P109+ has no distinquishing clade marker values which make it distinct from basic L22+ I1-N It is amazing. I think P109+ must have occurred extremely soon after the L22+ happened. If your Dad upgraded you would get a slightly more accurate representation of the 68-111 markers for the Springer MRCA. I would expect a difference or two among the 68-111. But then you'd probably want a third to break the 1/1 deadlocks on the differing values. Do you know by paper how young is your Springer cluster? It looks extremely young. Ken - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: M Robards Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 2:02 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] 68-111 Markers P109 was Re: A pitch for the 68-111 STRmarkers Ken, I have been putting off upgrading my dad's Y 67 out to 111. I kept finding other ways to spend the money I already don't have, mainly FF tests for several of my own family. If you could take a look at the Y STR chart for the 'Dennis' group in the SPRINGER project, we have quite a few participants in this group. Reason being we were trying to ID family lines, and we did to a small degree. I have put a matching non-Springer in the chart just so you can compare, they have gone out to 111 and are also P109. There is no FF match between 182783 and the only other 2 in this group who have done the FF. I'm only mentioning this as a minor detail. So do you mean that you are finding sub-clades in I1 by comparing these 111 upgrades. If I were to upgrade my dad 24291 to 111 from 67, with only two in this group then up to 111, would that show anything? If they don't match 100% in this panel, or do, I don't see how that would tell me anything, without getting at least one each from each of the family groups within this group. There is no way I can upgrade any of the others in the group, and no one else really shows an interest. And since 182783's paper trail indicates a different origin, I'm trying to find the justification to spend the money :( SS only goes so far, but I feel if I don't do this, no one else will either. I just need something to push me over the edge. melissa springer robards On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: snip > Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 > haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I. And then I use > that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. > So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your > information will not go to waste. And it would help if you suggested to > FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its > restrictions on purchase. > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt snip ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This genealogy versus ancient clade dicotomy is beginning to get overblown as more extended haplotypes and more snps allow us to push the establishment of "ancient clades" closer to the present. This came home to roost in my personal case. I have been staring unproductively at my extended haplotype for over 8 years, and it has been truly an outlier, especially in Norway where it has been for last 250 years for sure until coming to America. Finally with extension to 111 markers and the further evidence available from a couple new snps, I could put my haplotype into a surprisingly robust clade centered in Scotland (instead of Norway) --- clade age not much over 1000 years. Is that genealogy or ancient clade history? - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Lplantagenet Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:08 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] A pitch for the 68-111 STR markers Until such time as we have something akin to full y chromosome snp tests over a clearly defined, fixed, set of nucleotide sites, extended haplotypes with as many STRs as possible provide us with the best clocks for adding the time dimension to the y tree. The 68-111 panel of STRs adds approximately 0.1 to the total mutation rate of haplotype STRs (that roughly means that every 10 generations on average on a line of descent, there will be a mutation within the 68-111 panel, itself). I decided the time has arrived to expand the Generations software to include the 68-111 panel of STRs for doing variance-based tmrca estimates; this should be done in the near future (after income tax forms are done and out of the way). *********************************** I will forward your pitch to my group, along with a few comments of my own. Although all or most AS7E's are interested mainly in genealogy, the fact that our MRCA was relatively recent should make an upgrade more appealing. I keep thinking (or hoping) that if we can just collect more genealogical information on individual families, while refining TMRCA estimates for the group and developing a clearer idea about relationships and distances within the group, that we might eventually reach conclusions of value to all AS7E's. Lindsey ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ken, Can we begin by agreeing that your work on Haplogroup I in deep time frames could give you a different perspective from someone working on paper genealogies in (obviously) genealogical time frames? I hope so because, as an admin of six surname projects, I do *not* want my members cherry-picking STR tests. I want them taking the full panels because, among other things, you never know where individual/private STR mutations will pop up — and those of us doing paper genealogy on individual families need every one of these we can get. We are not looking at the "big picture," as you are; we are looking at the "small picture." I just checked at FTDNA to determine which Y-STR markers, among their standard offering (Markers 1-111), are available a-la-carte. All of them are, except for the 15 markers that were new and exclusive to FTDNA in Panel 5. My guess as to why FTDNA is not updating Ysearch is that they want people to transfer their results to them, instead. Of the two options, I would prefer the latter, myself. It makes it easier to incorporate them into my projects, easier to get them to upgrade their testing, and much easier to get them to share their lineage. Ken, please be aware that the research you are doing with these data is the *exception* to what the majority of FTDNA customers are doing with those results. If FTDNA caters to our needs, not yours, consider it a result of market forces. When you, personally, start purchasing tests by the thousands, you will probably start getting their attention. Otherwise, you should not be surprised to find them ignoring your wishes, especially when your strategies appear intended to *reduce* their sales. >From my perspective, as a surname project admin, having members cherry-pick STRs is detrimental*, so I hope FTDNA sticks to its guns and continues to make people test Panel 5 to get the 15 new markers and to test Panels 1-4 before they can take Panel 5. I know we disagree, but you've had your say, and now I've had mine. Let's just stop here and not drag this out into an interminable debate. It's possible to have different opinions on this subject depending on what you are using these test results for. There is no right or wrong, here, because it's not a question of fact, it's a question of perspective, and that's a personal matter for each of us. Diana *The more markers you test, the more statistically meaningful matches become (or, conversely, the more meaningful differences become). So, why would you want to reduce the number of markers people test? > -----Original Message----- > From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna- > haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:17 AM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com > Subject: [yDNAhgI] A pitch for the 68-111 STR markers > > It is not easy to understand FTDNA’s schizo policies toward the > wonderful product they introduced --- the 68-111 panel of STR > markers. I have found it a strong tool for finding new ancient > clade divisions throughout much of haplogroup I. > > If someone had 37 STR markers and a budget-constrained amount to > spend on haplotype expansion, I’d advise going for the 68-111 panel > instead of 38-67 panel if you had that choice. The 38-67 panel is > boring by comparison in its > haplotype and clade distinquishing properties. > > But FTDNA seems to bury this 68-111 panel product beneath > unnecessary difficulties. Why is not Ysearch expanded to include > the 68-111 panel of STRs? Why can not the customer order the 68-111 > set of markers without first buying the 38-67 panel of markers? But > maybe some one can make our day (at least my day) and report that > this latter policy has been eliminated? The other day someone did > report that there is a way to partially circumvent FTDNA’s policy > concerning these 68-111 STRs. Most of them can be purchased as > singletons. I don’t know if there are any rules or conditions to do > this selective buying. On the positive side, FTDNA has upgraded its > data spreadsheets for its Projects to include the 68-111 panel. > Those projects which do not use FTDNA’s spreadsheet might consider > including this 68-111 panel as well. > > Until such time as we have something akin to full y chromosome snp > tests over a clearly defined, fixed, set of nucleotide sites, > extended haplotypes with as many STRs as possible provide us with > the best clocks for adding the time dimension to the y tree. The > 68-111 panel of STRs adds approximately 0.1 to the total mutation > rate of haplotype STRs (that roughly means that every 10 generations > on average on a line of descent, there will be a mutation within the > 68-111 panel, itself). I decided the time has arrived to expand > the Generations software to include the 68-111 panel of STRs for > doing variance-based tmrca estimates; this should > be done in the near future (after income tax forms are done and out > of the way). > > If you scan the I1modalities file linked to below, you will see I > now include the 68-111 STRs in the table of clade identifying STRs. > I eventually plan to make such online tables for the rest of y > haplogroup I. > > Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 > haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I. And then I > use that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. > So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your > information will not go to waste. And it would help if you > suggested to FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch > and its restrictions on purchase. > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt

Ken, I have been putting off upgrading my dad's Y 67 out to 111. I kept finding other ways to spend the money I already don't have, mainly FF tests for several of my own family. If you could take a look at the Y STR chart for the 'Dennis' group in the SPRINGER project, we have quite a few participants in this group. Reason being we were trying to ID family lines, and we did to a small degree. I have put a matching non-Springer in the chart just so you can compare, they have gone out to 111 and are also P109. There is no FF match between 182783 and the only other 2 in this group who have done the FF. I'm only mentioning this as a minor detail. So do you mean that you are finding sub-clades in I1 by comparing these 111 upgrades. If I were to upgrade my dad 24291 to 111 from 67, with only two in this group then up to 111, would that show anything? If they don't match 100% in this panel, or do, I don't see how that would tell me anything, without getting at least one each from each of the family groups within this group. There is no way I can upgrade any of the others in the group, and no one else really shows an interest. And since 182783's paper trail indicates a different origin, I'm trying to find the justification to spend the money :( SS only goes so far, but I feel if I don't do this, no one else will either. I just need something to push me over the edge. melissa springer robards On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net> wrote: snip > Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I.  And then I use that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. > So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your information will not go to waste.  And it would help if you suggested to FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its restrictions on purchase. > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt snip

-----Original Message----- From: Diana Matthiesen Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 11:13 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com ; knordtvedt@bresnan.net Subject: RE: [yDNAhgI] A pitch for the 68-111 STR markers Ken, Can we begin by agreeing .................. I know we disagree, .................... [[Make up your mind. Although you got very preachy and stuffed your message with strawman arguments, mis-stating my positions, I will not write a long message in reply as you requested. But my message was clearly stated to be about what would be desirable for deep ancestry structures in haplogroup I --- not genealogy era endeavors --- so it did not require your sermon this foggy Sunday morning under the same subject title thread, but rather deserved your separate pitch on what interests you. KN ]] - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.

Yes, I have seen your phylotree. It brings up the whole issue of "analagous methods" I refered to in my original message. While a whole book(let) could be written on this very interesting subject, it has prompted me maybe later today to draw just one powerpoint picture of what I think would happen in the ultimate of "analagous methods". Looking at your tree and mine, the first thing that strikes my eye is how late you have the I2 part of I breaking up into multiple parts. As you can see in my tree, I have I2 breaking up into P37, P217, and L596/L416 parts at about the same time as i1 and I2 branch lines split. In fact, I'd put all those splits in the "simultaneous within statistical uncertainty" category. So my variance-based time line says I1 basically split into four branches about 20,000 years ago: four branches which eventually led to haplogroups I1...., I2a...., I2b..., and I2 in the old language. Time will tell which of these pictures is more robust to additional evidence. I have now accumulated enough 111 marker haplotypes, I decided to upgrade my Generations excel program spreadsheet tool for evaluating intra and inter clade variances and tmrca estimates. I will then redo the key node age estimates for the I tree to see if I need to make any significant adjustments. While I think that some of the very slowest STR mutations can have their locations in a tree estimated with some confidence, I think the confidence of location falls rapidly as STRs of faster mutation rate are considered. So I don't think one can work one's way through a long tree (series of many branch line segments) by making single STR mutation decisions sequentially. So the optimum strategy must seriously discount single STR inferences as their rates increase, while depending more on the whole package of STR differences between clades. Do you have an inferred haplotype for the haplogroup I patriarch who lived roughly 20,000 years ago? - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 8:35 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] PhyloTrees and Time Ken, I assume you have seen my Phylogenetic Tree for y-Haplogroups I1 and I2 given in the "UPDATE7" section of http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/ It includes a computed timeline of when various STR mutations may have occurred in order to explain all of the STR haplotypes used in the construction of the hierarchical clustering tree. One can't compute a hierarchical clustering tree without indirectly computing such a timeline - but that computed timeline is necessarily very approximate. The STR clusters in the tree often correlate with various SNP mutations as indicated. Terry On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Kenneth Nordtvedt <knordtvedt@bresnan.net>wrote: > The trees seen at FTDNA, other companies, and ISOGG are just logical > phylotrees based on snps. They indicate the logical time ordering > (greater > than, less than, connectivities, etc.) of the shown nodes of the tree > along > with the necessity of shown nodes based on seeing haplotypes with various > combinations of snps in derived or ancestral state. These kind of trees > indicate no metric or measure of time back to the various nodes. > > My trees linked to below include all the node time ordering logic obtained > from snp information available to me, but they use extended STR haplotype > information from large collections of haplotypes as well --- for purposes > of putting measured time into the trees. From the STR haplotypes measures > of “distance” between haplotypes and their clade MRCAs are obtainable. > These “distance” measures are typically some kind of variance or GD like > calculable quantity. With measured mutation rates for the STRs present in > the haplotypes, these measures of distances between haplotypes can be > converted into actual time intervals between the nodes, thereby giving the > trees not only logical structure but estimated depth back in time to key > node events. Others messaging on this or that forum have been > constructing > trees with a measured time sense using analagous methods. If the nodes > are > not too dense, the STR-based methods of measuring time between nodes can > also infer the logical ordering of the nodes when the snp information is > not yet in hand. That was in fact the rule in haplogroup I in the early > days before the recent “explosion” in available snps. > > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is not easy to understand FTDNA’s schizo policies toward the wonderful product they introduced --- the 68-111 panel of STR markers. I have found it a strong tool for finding new ancient clade divisions throughout much of haplogroup I. If someone had 37 STR markers and a budget-constrained amount to spend on haplotype expansion, I’d advise going for the 68-111 panel instead of 38-67 panel if you had that choice. The 38-67 panel is boring by comparison in its haplotype and clade distinquishing properties. But FTDNA seems to bury this 68-111 panel product beneath unnecessary difficulties. Why is not Ysearch expanded to include the 68-111 panel of STRs? Why can not the customer order the 68-111 set of markers without first buying the 38-67 panel of markers? But maybe some one can make our day (at least my day) and report that this latter policy has been eliminated? The other day someone did report that there is a way to partially circumvent FTDNA’s policy concerning these 68-111 STRs. Most of them can be purchased as singletons. I don’t know if there are any rules or conditions to do this selective buying. On the positive side, FTDNA has upgraded its data spreadsheets for its Projects to include the 68-111 panel. Those projects which do not use FTDNA’s spreadsheet might consider including this 68-111 panel as well. Until such time as we have something akin to full y chromosome snp tests over a clearly defined, fixed, set of nucleotide sites, extended haplotypes with as many STRs as possible provide us with the best clocks for adding the time dimension to the y tree. The 68-111 panel of STRs adds approximately 0.1 to the total mutation rate of haplotype STRs (that roughly means that every 10 generations on average on a line of descent, there will be a mutation within the 68-111 panel, itself). I decided the time has arrived to expand the Generations software to include the 68-111 panel of STRs for doing variance-based tmrca estimates; this should be done in the near future (after income tax forms are done and out of the way). If you scan the I1modalities file linked to below, you will see I now include the 68-111 STRs in the table of clade identifying STRs. I eventually plan to make such online tables for the rest of y haplogroup I. Presently I am trying to keep complete a full database of all 68-111 haplotype extensions reported out within haplogroup I. And then I use that database to detect any new clade structure in haplogroup I. So I recommend buying this panel if you are in haplogroup I; your information will not go to waste. And it would help if you suggested to FTDNA to treat this panel better with regard to Ysearch and its restrictions on purchase. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.

CeCe: If you can identify the I1 subclade through Cullen's subclade predictor, some recommendations could be made. Jim Jim Owston James M. Owston, EdD Dean of Distance Learning Associate Professor: Communication & Media Mountain State University PO Box 9003 Beckley, WV 25802-9003 304.929.1356 800.766.6167, ext. 1356 ________________________________________ From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CeCe Moore [cecemoore@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:13 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? Hi, Y-search ID MX27E is a new I1. (23andMe says I1*) I plan on SNP testing as soon as I can get a recommendation. Can someone look at it and suggest what would be the best SNP(s) to test? This is the first participant of my new Stoalabarger DNA Project (my 3rd cousin once removed). The Stoalabargers are supposed to be from Germany and I was hoping to get some hints as to the origins of their surname, but there don't appear to be any relevant matches yet. I just joined the I1 Project. Thanks, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If you have doubts of my AS2 clade identification, Z138 and/or Z139 will add strength to the identification, and in any case give you a further downstream snp landmark. Z138 and Z139 are supposed to be phyloequivalent, meaning we have just seen both negative or both positive in cases where both were tested. You could just test one. But logically, some day we might find a Z138+ Z139- or vice versa. To order such a snp, go to personal page. In upper right corner click on red box which says "order further tests" Then look for "advanced tests" NOT "advanced snp tests". You will have a choice of STR tests, Y SNP tests..... pick Y SNPs You will get menu of all available snps. Put in box Z138. Then proceed with order as they direct. And remember not to blame me for FTDNA's obscure process for snp orders as outlined above. It's their doing! Ken - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: CeCe Moore Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:35 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? Thanks, Ken. Does that mean that I should order Z138 and Z139? Sorry, I am not very experienced with SNP orders. Thank you for your expertise and time, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com mx27e looks like an AS2 haplotype and should be Z138+ Z139+ - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt Hi, Y-search ID MX27E is a new I1. (23andMe says I1*) I plan on SNP testing as soon as I can get a recommendation. Can someone look at it and suggest what would be the best SNP(s) to test? This is the first participant of my new Stoalabarger DNA Project (my 3rd cousin once removed). The Stoalabargers are supposed to be from Germany and I was hoping to get some hints as to the origins of their surname, but there don't appear to be any relevant matches yet. I just joined the I1 Project. Thanks, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I agree, Scandinavia is relatively underreresented. Because of the strong bias as to who has participated in genetic genealogy databases, British Isles will almost always be present, and Germany. About all we can do with the databases we have is note DIFFERENCES in frequencies from different areas from one clade to another. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 6:59 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? I have mentioned I1b (M227): in my database I have 3 Byelorussians/Lithuanians, two French and one Italian, ie. 50/50. I am not sure about T2, but there are also some Spanish, Italians and French, quite many British and Germans. In general I think T2 is dissipated over entire Europe. I don't know how many Scandinavians are in T2, but I have impression that not many. -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? You forgot M227 which has a definite eastern tendency. The only part of I1 comparably eastern oriented is T2 - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 6:15 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? This goes in the direction mentioned by Juergen Fritsche few days ago. But take a look on all the subclades Z58- Z63- in your I1 tree: AS4 - Welsh ML - in my database mixed continental Europeans P1 - Poles P2 - dominated by Brits I1b - mixed Eastern and Western Europeans 1212 - don't know AS7E - English Three of the above seven clades are British (beside, I am not sure about ML and 1212). I1 people in the England and Wales are traditionally classified as descendants of Angles (from Southern Jutland), Saxons, Frisians, Juts, and Normans of Normandy (mixed). -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 4:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? I do not see enough data yet to pick a location. Main hint of evidence is from looking at Z58- Z63- Z131- haplotypes --- both clades and individual generics. They most all show a tendency to have higher frequencies of more easterly places of origin than rest of I1. The Welsh AS4 is a very interesting exception. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Do you mean the MRCAs lived Mecklemburgia, Brandenburgia or Western Pomerania (Vorpommern)? What are the hints? This is very interesting. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Is it possible the MRCA for I1 lived more easterly in the north German plain than its present center of gravity? I think there are hints to that effect. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4890 - Release Date: 03/23/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4891 - Release Date: 03/24/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4892 - Release Date: 03/24/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

mx27e looks like an AS2 haplotype and should be Z138+ Z139+ - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: CeCe Moore Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 6:13 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNPtesting? Hi, Y-search ID MX27E is a new I1. (23andMe says I1*) I plan on SNP testing as soon as I can get a recommendation. Can someone look at it and suggest what would be the best SNP(s) to test? This is the first participant of my new Stoalabarger DNA Project (my 3rd cousin once removed). The Stoalabargers are supposed to be from Germany and I was hoping to get some hints as to the origins of their surname, but there don't appear to be any relevant matches yet. I just joined the I1 Project. Thanks, CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You forgot M227 which has a definite eastern tendency. The only part of I1 comparably eastern oriented is T2 - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 6:15 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? This goes in the direction mentioned by Juergen Fritsche few days ago. But take a look on all the subclades Z58- Z63- in your I1 tree: AS4 - Welsh ML - in my database mixed continental Europeans P1 - Poles P2 - dominated by Brits I1b - mixed Eastern and Western Europeans 1212 - don't know AS7E - English Three of the above seven clades are British (beside, I am not sure about ML and 1212). I1 people in the England and Wales are traditionally classified as descendants of Angles (from Southern Jutland), Saxons, Frisians, Juts, and Normans of Normandy (mixed). -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 4:49 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? I do not see enough data yet to pick a location. Main hint of evidence is from looking at Z58- Z63- Z131- haplotypes --- both clades and individual generics. They most all show a tendency to have higher frequencies of more easterly places of origin than rest of I1. The Welsh AS4 is a very interesting exception. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Marek Skarbek Kozietulski Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 5:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Do you mean the MRCAs lived Mecklemburgia, Brandenburgia or Western Pomerania (Vorpommern)? What are the hints? This is very interesting. Marek Skarbek Kozietulski -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:31 AM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: [yDNAhgI] Location of I1 founder? Is it possible the MRCA for I1 lived more easterly in the north German plain than its present center of gravity? I think there are hints to that effect. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net showing my working tree for YDNA haplogroup I. These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4890 - Release Date: 03/23/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4891 - Release Date: 03/24/12 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There is also city of Stolberg near Aachen in Rheinland. There still live many Stolberger in this area http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/stolberger.html . -----Original Message----- From: y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:y-dna-haplogroup-i-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CeCe Moore Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 6:41 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Marek. Stollberger is one of my areas of interest. The immigrant was rumored to be from the "Upper Rhine", but I have found no documentation of such. I was curious what story the Y-DNA would tell, but so far not too much. CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: msskarbek@gmail.com To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:41:00 -0700 Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? Stollberger? http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/stollberger.html There is the city of Stollberg in the Upper Saxony. -----Original Message----- CeCe: If you can identify the I1 subclade through Cullen's subclade predictor, some recommendations could be made. Jim ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2114/4892 - Release Date: 03/24/12

Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Marek. Stollberger is one of my areas of interest. The immigrant was rumored to be from the "Upper Rhine", but I have found no documentation of such. I was curious what story the Y-DNA would tell, but so far not too much. CeCe www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com www.studiointv.com --Forwarded Message Attachment-- From: msskarbek@gmail.com To: y-dna-haplogroup-i@rootsweb.com Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 17:41:00 -0700 Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Stoalabarger I1 / I -M253 - Recommendation for SNP testing? Stollberger? http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/stollberger.html There is the city of Stollberg in the Upper Saxony. -----Original Message----- CeCe: If you can identify the I1 subclade through Cullen's subclade predictor, some recommendations could be made. Jim