Cliff, They do appear further down that M223 branch you listed in the FTDNA draft Y-tree. On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Cliff. Johnston <[email protected]>wrote: > Ken, > > I notice that our Johnstons are in a branch defined as: > > M223, P219, P220, P221, P222, P223, L34, L36, L59, L622, L800, L1196, Z77, > L1316 > > Any idea why the SNPs L1290 and L1317 do not appear anywhere (at least > that I've > been able to find)? These 2 SNPs were in Chirstopher Johnston's WTY test > - new > SNPs. > Z77 was found to be phyloequivilent with M223 and those other SNPs some > time back.

Hi Bill, Thanks for ordering, and I'm sorry, I replied to your earlier email before I saw this one; I'm still catching up with my holiday backlog! Anyway, I see FTDNA have already batched your order for Z2539 so I'm not sure whether they would they would issue a refund. It may be worth asking, though. Julie ------------ <<From: Bill Hawk Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 9:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [yDNAhgI] next tests for Z140/Z141 pos Ken, Julie etal, I have ordered Z2535 and Z2538 . Hope this helps further the cause. Bill Hawk, kit # 117095>>

Sorry for the delay...it took me longer than expected to get to this since I came down with the flu last week F2805 4160142 C->T: CAGI16:- ; PGP119:- L669 6753291 G->C: CAGI16:- ; PGP119:- PF5425 16638155 G->C: CAGI16:- ; PGP119:- PF6211 21296172 C->T: CAGI16:- ; PGP119:- The "-" results correspond to results matching the reference sequence at these positions, which I'm assuming (though haven't confirmed) corresponds to ancestral. Greg On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Bernie Cullen <[email protected]>wrote: > .... > > There are four SNPs which give no-calls at Geno 2.0 only for > I-L161 "Isles", There are now two I-L161 samples on the 1000 Genomes > volunteers' spreadsheet: CAGI16 and PGP119. They could be investigated > for the following: > F2805 (no call for all three I-L161 at Geno 2.0) > L669 (no call only for I-L161 "Isles-B2" at Geno 2.0) > PF5425 (no call only for I-L161 "Isles-D3" at Geno 2.0) > PF6211 (no call only for I-L161 "Isles-D2" and "Isles-D3" at Geno 2.0) >

Hi Tony Thank you. Nice to see you progress further downstream! :) Julie -------------------- <<From: Tony Bardy Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:46 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Update - Z58 et al Surname SNP Tree Julie, kit 186577 (myself) is z2541+>>

Hi Bill I suggest you write to FTDNA as soon as possible (before they batch) and tell them that you accidentally ordered the wrong SNP. I suggest you ask that they change your order for Z2539 to Z2538 instead, since Ken suggests this SNP may be a good fit for you. If by some chance you prove to be negative, you could always back up to Z2535 later. Kind regards Julie -------------- <<From: Bill Hawk Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:26 AM To: Julie Frame Falk ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Update - Z58 et al Surname SNP Tree Julie etal, I signed up for Z2539, which appears to have been a mistake for its position relative to Z140/Z141. Should I do Z2535, or go for Z2536-8? What would be the most useful course to take? Bill Hawk, kit #117095>>

Thanks, Deb. It would be nice to think Z2337 will change the 'negative' trend for you, but if not, it may be of some small consolation that you will at least get the *asterisk* status for a while! :) Best wishes Julie -------------- <<From: Debbie Demeester Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 1:00 AM To: Julie Frame Falk ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] New Update - Z58 et al Surname SNP Tree Hi, Julie, et. al. It looks like I’ve have results on 3 of the 4 new SNPs ordered and all negative so far: Z2538- Z2536- Z2535- (Z2337 pending) looks like it’s following the trend... Deb >>

The y snp Z2535 has now turned up positive (derived) in two members of the L338+ AS1 clade of I1. And all those outside of AS1 have tested negative. But AS8 clade L338+ has not tested Z2535 yet. Does Z2535 split AS1 from AS8? AS8 looks sort of like AS1 at first glance, sharing the 22/26/11/9/15 at 447, 449, 460, H4, 456. But 464d usually is 17 for AS8, and AS8 is 10 at 511 and 13 at 462. If you are AS8 please consider testing snp Z2535. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+" "Tree for I1d L22+" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.

-----Original Message----- From: Cliff. Johnston Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA Y-tree draft Ken, I notice that our Johnstons are in a branch defined as: M223, P219, P220, P221, P222, P223, L34, L36, L59, L622, L800, L1196, Z77, L1316 Any idea why the SNPs L1290 and L1317 do not appear anywhere (at least that I've been able to find)? These 2 SNPs were in Chirstopher Johnston's WTY test - new SNPs. When did Z77 appear? I may have lost track of it, but I don't seem to recall it. Thanks, Cliff. I have nothing to do with the M223 Project classifications or those by FTDNA. In my own database the Johnstons are in the L1290+ subhaplogroup / clade Cont-1216 branch line location. See "Tree for M223+ Z161+" at link below. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+" "Tree for I1d L22+" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained.

So Kenneth, does that mean people should not test for it as all L22 and downstream will be derived? Please clarify.

Is it worthwhile for someone I-P109 to test for L1340?

I have no idea about that Kenneth but if you see something, I would tell them before it becomes their official tree.

Weird that it would be found in I1xL22 and a single L22+ haplotype - what would you make of that? On Dec 28, 2012, at 7:20 PM, "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[email protected]> wrote: > OOOPs. It seems I have a message from FTDNA lab about the deletion mutation > called L1340. It was overlooked in earlier WTYs because deletions have to > be handled differently in the lab. > So it is not unique, apparently, to I1d-13, but seen in I1xL22 as well. > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > "Tree for I1 Z58+" > "Tree for I1d L22+" > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1 modalities" > "The M223+ Modalities" > > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:03 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp > > Yes, P109+ is about as old as the basic L22+ clade. > The only implied negative I can find for L1340 is the WTY person from L813+ > I1-uN clade > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > "Tree for I1 Z58+" > "Tree for I1d L22+" > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1 modalities" > "The M223+ Modalities" > > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne R. Roberts > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 4:55 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp > > Is it worthwhile for someone I-P109 to test for L1340? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The draft for FTDNA's Y-tree is up. http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root It can take a while to load on some systems. Wayne

Yes, I noticed that CTS6344 and CTS1977 were added to the I2a2a3a part of the draft tree. http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813241 If you move the pointer over a yellow star you'll get the number of days since the branch was updated. If you click on a yellow star you'll see the change log for the branch in question. Regards, H. Styri > From: Bernie Cullen [[email protected]] > Sent: 2012-12-28 20:45:53 CET > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA Y-tree draft > > I don't see any recent changes in the I-P37.2 part of the tree, are > there changes in other parts of haplogroup I? > > Bernie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I expanded my markers to 111 (#236407), but I believe I remain in the I1-N haplotype. I'll happily test L1340 if you think it'll be useful as a control. On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:32 PM, "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[email protected]> wrote: > Some time ago I isolated a very novel clade of L22+ which looks like it branched away from bulk of the tree quite early. It is called I1d-13 in honor of the modal 13 at DYS392. But it has many other unique STR values. > > See “The I1 modalities” for the full set of identifiers. > > I today noticed that one member of the clade did a WTY and was found to have a new snp --- L1340. I believe it is a deletion type of mutation. > Also, it seems no one else has since done a L1340 test. > > I recommend members of this clade I1d-13 test for L1340, and that a few basic L22+ I1d also do so in order to see if the L1340+ is confined to the I1d-13 clade. > > See “Tree for I1dL22+” for the estimated very early location of the node from which the I1d-13 branch line emerges. > > Membership of the clade stretches from Russia west to Scotland, catching Scandinavia and Germany in between. > > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > "Tree for I1 Z58+" > "Tree for I1d L22+" > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1 modalities" > "The M223+ Modalities" > > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Draft tree means nothing, but your observations are basic. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+" "Tree for I1d L22+" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: John O'Grady Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 7:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp Ken, L1340 is found in all I1. It is shown as phyloequivalent to M253 in the FTDNA draft tree: http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=39157351 I also verified all the available I1 results in WTY about one month ago. John O'Grady > > I found a month old message from the lab saying they just overlooked this > snp in a number of previous wtys. Because it is a deletion, they said, it > has to be handled "manually" with increased chance of human error. > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Ken and others. Should kit 196787 test for this SNP or any other? Thanks. Deb From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 7:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp OOOPs. It seems I have a message from FTDNA lab about the deletion mutation called L1340. It was overlooked in earlier WTYs because deletions have to be handled differently in the lab. So it is not unique, apparently, to I1d-13, but seen in I1xL22 as well. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+" "Tree for I1d L22+" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Kenneth Nordtvedt Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp Yes, P109+ is about as old as the basic L22+ clade. The only implied negative I can find for L1340 is the WTY person from L813+ I1-uN clade - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+" "Tree for I1d L22+" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Wayne R. Roberts Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 4:55 PM To: y-dna-haplogroup-i Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp Is it worthwhile for someone I-P109 to test for L1340? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The abbreviation "Inv" apparently refers to ISOGG and should imply that the SNP is under investigation. To confirm this you should look it up on the ISOGG website. Regards, H. Styri > From: Hans De Beule [[email protected]] > Sent: 2012-12-28 18:58:28 CET > To: [email protected], [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA Y-tree draft > > > Tx Wayne. > > What does the abbreviation "(Inv)" mean in: > > Approx. hg: I-L38* (ISOGG: I (Inv)) L533 > > Best, > > Hans > > > > Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:12:27 +1000 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > > Subject: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA Y-tree draft > > > > The draft for FTDNA's Y-tree is up. > > > > http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root > > > > It can take a while to load on some systems. Wayne > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Tx Wayne. What does the abbreviation "(Inv)" mean in: Approx. hg: I-L38* (ISOGG: I (Inv)) L533 Best, Hans > Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2012 00:12:27 +1000 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [yDNAhgI] FTDNA Y-tree draft > > The draft for FTDNA's Y-tree is up. > > http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root > > It can take a while to load on some systems. Wayne > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found a month old message from the lab saying they just overlooked this snp in a number of previous wtys. Because it is a deletion, they said, it has to be handled "manually" with increased chance of human error. - - - - Kenneth Nordtvedt See: "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" "Tree for I1 Z58+" "Tree for I1d L22+" "Tree for M223 x Z161" "Tree for M223+ Z161+" "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" "The I1 modalities" "The M223+ Modalities" at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. -----Original Message----- From: Phillip Peterson Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:42 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp Weird that it would be found in I1xL22 and a single L22+ haplotype - what would you make of that? On Dec 28, 2012, at 7:20 PM, "Kenneth Nordtvedt" <[email protected]> wrote: > OOOPs. It seems I have a message from FTDNA lab about the deletion > mutation > called L1340. It was overlooked in earlier WTYs because deletions have to > be handled differently in the lab. > So it is not unique, apparently, to I1d-13, but seen in I1xL22 as well. > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > "Tree for I1 Z58+" > "Tree for I1d L22+" > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1 modalities" > "The M223+ Modalities" > > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Nordtvedt > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:03 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp > > Yes, P109+ is about as old as the basic L22+ clade. > The only implied negative I can find for L1340 is the WTY person from > L813+ > I1-uN clade > > > > - - - - > Kenneth Nordtvedt > > See: > "Tree for I1xL22xZ58" > "Tree for I1 Z58+" > "Tree for I1d L22+" > "Tree for M223 x Z161" > "Tree for M223+ Z161+" > "Tree and Map for haplogroup I" > "The I1 modalities" > "The M223+ Modalities" > > > at http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net > > These files are periodically updated as new information is obtained. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wayne R. Roberts > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 4:55 PM > To: y-dna-haplogroup-i > Subject: Re: [yDNAhgI] Overlooked L22+ subhaplogroup with available snp > > Is it worthwhile for someone I-P109 to test for L1340? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message